Did Jesus spiritually die at the cross?

Dizerner

Well-known member
Show me where that is mentioned in the Bible and I will discuss it with you.

That's like saying show me where pedophilia is condemned in the Bible before I will discuss it.

You have to use logical deduction.

The Law brings wrath, Jesus fulfilled the Law.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Revelation 21:8... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...

Did Jesus experience the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone?

I say No.

Do you think that wrath of God is NOT described as a death that is spiritual?

YES or NO?

I say NO.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Do you think that wrath of God is NOT described as a death that is spiritual?

YES or NO?

I say NO.

YES.

The wrath of God is for those who were NEVER “spiritually ALIVE”, so they CANNOT “spiritually DIE” since they have ALWAYS BEEN “spiritually DEAD”.

Colossians 3:6... For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

I answered your question, now will you answer my previous question...

Did Jesus experience the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone?

I say NO.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...
Does ANY human (other than Adam and Eve) “spiritually die”?
I say No. Humans are born spiritually dead, and the humans who become “spiritually alive” do not “spiritually die”.
I don't play silly word games. You want to discuss scripture?
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Jesus paid the price for your sins.

It is an important and powerful truth not to reduce the punishment for sin against a holy God to just simply physically dying.

Think about it—if physical death were the full punishment for sin, then a person pays for their own sin every time a person dies.

After they pay by dying, they have earned the right to heaven without Jesus.

No, Jesus took the penalty of sin which is the punishment sin deserves.

Jesus suffered God's righteous anger against your sins.
When a sinner dies, their sins are not forgiven. They die in their sinful state and are lost.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Revelation 21:8... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...
Did Jesus experience the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone?
I say No.
I don't care. Unsupported opinions about scripture mean diddly to me.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
YES.

The wrath of God is for those who were NEVER “spiritually ALIVE”, so they CANNOT “spiritually DIE” since they have ALWAYS BEEN “spiritually DEAD”.

Colossians 3:6... For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

I answered your question, now will you answer my previous question...

Did Jesus experience the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone?

I say NO.

Why is it called the SECOND DEATH then.

You don't really care, do you?

Your unsupported opinion means less than nothing to me.

I supported what I said.

You didn't.

So ditto.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Exactly.

Ergo, physical death is not the price of sin.
Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9 Much more surely, therefore, since we have now been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9 Much more surely, therefore, since we have now been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Saved from wrath through him. We get wrath but Jesus doesn't makes absolutely no sense.

I defend PSA here:

 

Exeter

Member
No, the debt is not paid off but erased/absolved meaning it’s no longer required.

If you accepted the money then it was no longer forgiven but paid for.
The clue is in the word forgive.

Yes, my work for a client required my inputs which had some value for which the client was liable.

In accounting for end of year tax purposes there are categories for "Bad Debts" ,"Doubtful Debts", & "Recovered Debts" which affect Taxable Income.

Bad Debts and Doubtful Debts are treated as costs against the business which reduce its taxable income.

All debts have to be paid for by someone, whether by the debtors who make good on them, or by the creditor who either suffers the loss forever and a day or forgives it, effectively paying for the goods or service they relate to out of their own pocket.

Hope that illuminates your thinking.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9 Much more surely, therefore, since we have now been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God

Please post YOUR answer to the question...

Did Jesus experience the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone?

I say No.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Why is it called the SECOND DEATH then.
You don't really care, do you?
I supported what I said.
You didn't.
So ditto.
I have addressed the "second death" before but for you.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
My name for these two sentient beings are “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Feel free to call them whatever you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new,” vs. 5.
No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.
 
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JNelson

Well-known member
The clue is in the word forgive.

Yes, my work for a client required my inputs which had some value for which the client was liable.

In accounting for end of year tax purposes there are categories for "Bad Debts" ,"Doubtful Debts", & "Recovered Debts" which affect Taxable Income.

Bad Debts and Doubtful Debts are treated as costs against the business which reduce its taxable income.

All debts have to be paid for by someone, whether by the debtors who make good on them, or by the creditor who either suffers the loss forever and a day or forgives it, effectively paying for the goods or service they relate to out of their own pocket.

Hope that illuminates your thinking.
I understand where you’re coming from but God isn’t a company that suffered a monetary loss.

Our sin isn’t like racking up credit card debt but rather our sin is an offense, literally a violation of his law.

With God, sin comes with a punishment not a monetary fine or loss. Because he is the offended party he can choose to apply the punishment (eternal death) or forgive the offense by treating us as if we never committed the offense. All he asks is that we repent and believe in his son, Jesus Christ.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
The clue is in the word forgive.

Yes, my work for a client required my inputs which had some value for which the client was liable.

In accounting for end of year tax purposes there are categories for "Bad Debts" ,"Doubtful Debts", & "Recovered Debts" which affect Taxable Income.

Bad Debts and Doubtful Debts are treated as costs against the business which reduce its taxable income.

All debts have to be paid for by someone, whether by the debtors who make good on them, or by the creditor who either suffers the loss forever and a day or forgives it, effectively paying for the goods or service they relate to out of their own pocket.

Hope that illuminates your thinking.
I understand where you’re coming from but God isn’t a company that suffered a monetary loss.

Our sin isn’t like racking up credit card debt but rather our sin is an offense, literally a violation of his law.

With God, sin comes with a punishment not a monetary fine or loss. Because he is the offended party he can choose to apply the punishment (eternal death) or forgive the offense by treating us as if we never committed the offense. All he asks is that we repent and believe in his son, Jesus Christ.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
@Dizerner please post YOUR answer to the question...

Did Jesus experience the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone?

If you deny this, you deny God has equal weights and measures.

If you deny this, you deny that God's holiness always requires the same punishment for sin.

If you deny this, you deny that Jesus took the punishment of what sin deserves.

If you deny this, Jesus got off with less than you do for the same sins!

I gave reasons for my yes, and this is the wrath of God against all ungodliness.

It's very strange and demonic that anyone would deny God's justice and give their own atonement a big discount.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I understand where you’re coming from but God isn’t a company that suffered a monetary loss.

Our sin isn’t like racking up credit card debt but rather our sin is an offense, literally a violation of his law.

With God, sin comes with a punishment not a monetary fine or loss. Because he is the offended party he can choose to apply the punishment (eternal death) or forgive the offense by treating us as if we never committed the offense. All he asks is that we repent and believe in his son, Jesus Christ.

Interesting that Christ's parables always compared it to a debt.

The point is not that we need money to pay off God.
 
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