Did Jesus teach he was GOD himself?

Lilel01

Well-known member
So, this is my point on this thread: Did Jesus teach he was GOD himself?

If he did, then we should believe it ... but if he did not, what should we do?

Luke 6:46 “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?
 

Lilel01

Well-known member
What did Jesus really teach about WHO is GOD to his followers? Did they believe he was God? Did they teach that belief to the next generation of Christians who learned their own beliefs from them?

When did that belief appear on the Christian scene and why is that fact important to us today?
 

Lilel01

Well-known member
The last book considered part of the authentic inspired canon of the Holy Scriptures was Apocalipsis. It was finished writing and circulated in Christian congregations by the beginning of the second century. The existing Christian community after the death of John, its writer, no longer produced any new Scripture considered to be of divine inspiration. From that time on, the stage of formation of the basis of true Christianity had been completed, the one taught by Jesus and his followers anointed with holy spirit.

Should we believe that some new belief that was not supported by the earlier work of the holy spirit was true? Was the Christian community after that date authorized in any way to introduce new dogmas into the teachings that new Christians were to learn?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
So, this is my point on this thread: Did Jesus teach he was GOD himself?
If he did, then we should believe it ... but if he did not, what should we do?
Luke 6:46 “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?
What do you believe?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
What did Jesus really teach about WHO is GOD to his followers? Did they believe he was God? Did they teach that belief to the next generation of Christians who learned their own beliefs from them?
When did that belief appear on the Christian scene and why is that fact important to us today?
John and Thomas believed that Jesus was/is God.
 

Lilel01

Well-known member
We all know the reasons that Trinitarians give to justify their belief.
Can you answer the questions in the thread?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
The last book considered part of the authentic inspired canon of the Holy Scriptures was Apocalipsis. It was finished writing and circulated in Christian congregations by the beginning of the second century. The existing Christian community after the death of John, its writer, no longer produced any new Scripture considered to be of divine inspiration. From that time on, the stage of formation of the basis of true Christianity had been completed, the one taught by Jesus and his followers anointed with holy spirit.
Should we believe that some new belief that was not supported by the earlier work of the holy spirit was true? Was the Christian community after that date authorized in any way to introduce new dogmas into the teachings that new Christians were to learn?
There was/is no "new belief" not supported by earlier works.
Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. CXV
I proceed now to show that the revelation made among your people in Babylon in the days of Jesus (Joshua) the priest, was an announcement of the things to be accomplished by our Priest, who is God, and Christ the Son of God the Father of all.

Chap. CXXVI. — The Various Names of Christ According to Both Natures. It Is Shown That He Is God, and Appeared to the Patriarchs.

“But if you knew, Trypho,” continued I, “who He is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel,285 and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many, and Wisdom by Solomon, and Joseph and Judah and a Star by Moses, and the East by Zechariah, and the Suffering One and Jacob and Israel by Isaiah again, and a Rod, and Flower, and Corner-Stone, and Son of God, you would not have blasphemer Him who has now come, and been born, and suffered, and ascended to heaven; who shall also come again, and then your twelve tribes shall mourn. For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies. Book I.Chap. VII. [Student of Polycarp, student of John]

5. Very properly, then, did he say, “In the beginning was the Word,” for He was in the Son; “and the Word was with God,” for He was the beginning; “and the Word was God,” of course, for that which is begotten of God is God.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book III. Chap. XXI.

4. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son; and ye shall call His name Emmanuel. Butter and honey shall He eat: before He knows or chooses out things that are evil, He shall exchange them for what is good; for before the child knows good or evil, He shall not consent to evil, that He may choose that which is good.” (Isa_7:10-17) Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man, when He says, “Butter and honey shall He eat;” and in that He terms Him a child also, [in saying,] “before He knows good and evil;” for these are all the tokens of a human infant. But that He “will not consent to evil, that He may choose that which is good,” — this is proper to God; that by the fact, that He shall eat butter and honey, we should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus.] Book I. Chap. II.

Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.
 
Last edited:

Lilel01

Well-known member
Let's talk about Paul and his beliefs as a Christian. He is a prominent example of a first-century Christian, for without being a follower of Jesus when he was alive, Paul was selected by God as the inspired writer of more than half the books of the New Testament.

Did Paul believe or teach that his God was Jesus Christ?
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Let's talk about Paul and his beliefs as a Christian. He is a prominent example of a first-century Christian, for without being a follower of Jesus when he was alive, Paul was selected by God as the inspired writer of more than half the books of the New Testament.

Did Paul believe or teach that his God was Jesus Christ?
Obviously He DID. Romans 9:5; 10:13; 11:33-36; Acts 17:24.
 

Lilel01

Well-known member
Paul did not believe or teach that his God was Jesus Christ. He was Jew just like all first Christians were.

This is what Paul believed and taught:

Romans 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.
... 15:5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant you to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, 6 so that unitedly you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.
... 15:24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

2 Corinthians 1:3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our trials so that we may be able to comfort others in any sort of trial with the comfort that we receive from God.
... 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the One who is to be praised forever, knows I am not lying.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead (...) 3 May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 He gave himself for our sins so that he might rescue us from the present wicked system of things according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4 as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will, 6 in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness that he kindly bestowed on us by means of his beloved one. 7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
... 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
... 5:20 always giving thanks to our God and Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
... 6:23 May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
... 4:19 In turn my God will fully supply all your need according to his riches in glory by means of Christ Jesus. 20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
... 3:17 Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, Sil·vaʹnus, and Timothy, to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: May you have undeserved kindness and peace. 2 We always thank God when we mention all of you in our prayers, 3 for we continually remember your faithful work, your loving labor, and your endurance because of your hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father.
... 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus make a way for us to come to you. 12 Moreover, may the Lord cause you to increase, yes, to abound in love for one another and for all, just as we do for you, 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

A true Christian seeks and clings to the truth; he does not fool himself with vain reasoning. Did Paul believe that Jesus Christ was his God?


 

Dizerner

Well-known member
A true Christian seeks and clings to the truth; he does not fool himself with vain reasoning. Did Paul believe that Jesus Christ was his God?

Although it never is explicitly stated except in some texual variations, I believe he did and let me give you seven reasons why.

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive worship from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 7 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."

In light of this, I invite you to continue on your journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.

God bless you!
 
Last edited:

Lilel01

Well-known member
That is vain reasoning, sorry.

If the idea of a God of three was what Jesus wanted his followers to believe, why didn't he say it clearly anywhere? Why did he make them understand the exact opposite of that, reaffirming that his own Father and God was the same GOD and FATHER of them?

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

And if he wanted them to consider him as their GOD, why does he keep calling them "brothers"?
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
That is vain reasoning, sorry.

Apologizing for your opinion really does seem like a sign of weakness. Just some advice.

If the idea of a God of three was what Jesus wanted his followers to believe, why didn't he say it clearly anywhere? Why did he make them understand the exact opposite of that, reaffirming that his own Father and God was the same GOD and FATHER of them?

If what Jesus said was enough why did Jesus clearly and forthrightly say he was sending another companion just like him in the person of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth? If what Jesus said was enough why did Jesus directly tell the disciples, "You cannot bear the truth of some things yet." These verses leave your reasoning in absolute shambles if I am to put the Bible first.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

And if he wanted them to consider him as their GOD, why does he keep calling them "brothers"?

Because Jesus is both our brother and God. Only God could bridge the gap of sin, so he reconciled the world to himself in Christ. This is not vain reasoning, this is exalting the very holiness of God.
 

Lilel01

Well-known member
Sorry again, but that is vain reasoning too.

I can not have a God who I can consider my brother at the same time.
I can not be a son of God and have another Son of God as my God,
and I can not be a son of God if Jesus was God, because Jesus is another (the Most Important) Son of God,
so I can only be his brother, while my Father is his own Father too.

Should I stop believing Jesus teachings and normal reasoning to start following your own reasoning instead?
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Sorry again, but that is vain reasoning too.

Calling each other's reasoning vain and apologizing for it, seems like an unprofitable way to dialogue.

I can not have a God who I can consider my brother at the same time.

Sure you can. What more intimate union, ultimate condescension, and depth of love could you possibly imagine?

I can not be a son of God and have another Son of God as my God,

Jesus led many sons to glory, and all have fallen short of the glory of God. The problem you have is you fall short of obeying and achieving the commandments of a holy God, you don't even keep the ten commandments that embody the spirit of the law. You have not loved God first, you have lied, you have stolen something morally, you have committed adultery in your heart, you have not honored your parents to the extent that Jesus did, and you have not resisted coveting other things. This means you are in trouble on judgment day without a proxy to stand in for you!

and I can not be a son of God if Jesus was God, because Jesus is another (the Most Important) Son of God,

Jesus and the Father are one, he clearly said this. In fact the only way someone as sinful as we are could ever be a son of God, is if someone as holy as Jesus stands in our sorry-ass place, because we only deserve hell.

so I can only be his brother, while my Father is his own Father too.

This is a false dichotomy, these are not mutually exclusive options.

Should I stop believing Jesus teachings and normal reasoning to start following your own reasoning instead?

If you stop posting in "argumentative" mode just to get your point across, and take a moment to just be quiet inside... don't think about how you can post another "your reasoning is so dumb, sorrrrrry man" post, and take a pause to just stop and be quiet for some moments, to examine your motives before God (without instantaneous reflex of a prideful man that says "I already know!"). Just stop and say a prayer to God right now, to show you the motives of your own heart, to bring you to greater purity and accuracy, to see the truth in all sincerity, and it will help us see anything in our hearts that needs clarification or purification so we can continue to grow in the truth.

Arguing the way you are currently is just childish and immature in my opinion.... and I'm not sorry.

I am getting on my knees right now and praying for us both to meditate on these truths and realize our own failings, and I will not respond to more immaturity because I don't think it will benefit either of us.

But God bless you.
 

Lilel01

Well-known member
I am not interested in vain discussions. I am interested in Jesus teachings ... That is what a Christian is.
I can not follow your vain reasoning, sorry and good bye.
 

Lilel01

Well-known member
Jesus mentioned God many times. See some examples:

John 20:17 " (...) go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

Apoc. 3:12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name."

Obviously, when he mentioned God, he didn't mean a Trinity. Jesus is not a Trinitarian. He wasn't when he lived as a human, and neither is he now in heaven.
 
Top