Did Jesus teach he was GOD himself?
- Thread starter Lilel01
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Jesus says something different than that to his apostles:
Matt. 13:10 So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; 14 and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’
I know they did not know everything ( John 14:25,26; 16:13), but I am pretty sure that had nothing to do with God's identity.
Nor do I think it possible that something that has not been recorded by inspiration in the New Testament, has been revealed to a later religion that acted so opposite to the way Christians acted in the first century, while there were still living apostles and anointed "older men", who guided the entire international Christian community of their days.
Matt. 13:10 So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; 14 and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’
I know they did not know everything ( John 14:25,26; 16:13), but I am pretty sure that had nothing to do with God's identity.
Nor do I think it possible that something that has not been recorded by inspiration in the New Testament, has been revealed to a later religion that acted so opposite to the way Christians acted in the first century, while there were still living apostles and anointed "older men", who guided the entire international Christian community of their days.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Indeed, our God IS The Father, as well as The Son and Holy Spirit.
What is your problem????
johnny guitar
Well-known member
He was God while on earth and God NOW in heaven
Interestingly, Jesus clarified who his own Lord is:
Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. 26 Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you".
It would be good if we asked ourselves if we have such frank speech as to feel as comfortable as Jesus himself when he called Jehovah "Lord of heaven and earth".
Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. 26 Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you".
It would be good if we asked ourselves if we have such frank speech as to feel as comfortable as Jesus himself when he called Jehovah "Lord of heaven and earth".
johnny guitar
Well-known member
He called The Father The Lord of heaven and earth and BTW so IS The Son.
And Jesus NEVER called anyone His Lord. He IS The ONE Lord.
First of all Jesus did not come here to explain or even prove the Trinity. Secondly, and I have been saying this for many, many years "I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. Romans 8:9-11 nicely lays it out.
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. Vs 10, And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Vs11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."
Question to think about? What do you notice about these three verses? Now, you made the following statement.
"Was God a trinity when he revealed himself to Abraham, to Moses, to any of the prophets?" The answer is yes, but not the way your thinking of the Trinity. It was the pre-existent God the Son that "physically" appeared to Abraham to Moses and to some of the other Old Testament Saints. Do you want proof, I can easily provide it?
IN GOD THE SON,
james
johnny guitar
Well-known member
ONE.
THREE.
That is your opinion, and I don't agree with it.
If Jesus clearly said that knowing God and His Son was a sine qua non to acquire eternal life, he is supposed to clarify perfectly the identity of the one he called "the only true God" and his own as His envoy (John 17: 3) ... Even the Samaritan woman knew that:
John 4:19 The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.”
Since there is a Liar who wishes to confuse believers and is capable of transforming himself into an angel of light in order to achieve this, a true seeker of truth should not settle for just any opinion, no matter how popular it is.
2 Cor. 11:12 Now what I am doing I will still do, that I may cut off the pretext from those who are wanting a pretext for being found equal to us in the office of which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.
There are even many fanatical atheists and other enemies of believers who pretend to be religious only to dishonor what they do not understand themselves and to mock believers, whom they consider fools.
Even if this is my opinion it is based on a quoted text, Romans 8:9-11.
Secondly, you did not address my answer to what you said. "Was God a trinity when he revealed himself to Abraham, to Moses, to any of the prophets?"
The answer is yes, but not the way your thinking of the Trinity. It was the pre-existent God the Son that "physically" appeared to Abraham to Moses and to some of the other Old Testament Saints. Do you want proof, I can easily provide it?
Yes, I did say "do you want proof" so I will provide said proof in the form of a question? Which person of the Trinity appeared to Abraham at Genesis 17 :1-2 claiming to be God Almighty?
In Him,
james
T
Timket
Guest
Agreed. And three more:
8) A mere creation cannot by himself forgive the sins of the paralytic or the harlot.
9) A mere creation cannot guarantee that today someone will be with Him in paradise
10) A mere creation cannot bridge the gap between man and God - Only God could, which is why the name "Jesus" (Yehoshua) means "God saves".
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This is not even a "good" try as a response. You deny the deity of Jesus Christ by giving "juvenile" answers to questions and all at the same time your still asking for answers even if they are "rhetorical. Yet, when I am offering answers you "shine" it off which means you are not only dishonest but a hypocrite.
Let me put this another way? Anyone can state a position, the point is that at least around here you have to prove your position. You deny the deity of Jesus Christ, prove it. I don't deny the deity of Jesus Christ and I want to prove it too you but your not interested. So again, who in the Trinity physically appeared to Abraham at Genesis 17:1-2 that claimed to be "God Almighty?"
In God the Son,
jamesna
eternomade
Well-known member
I will reply.
Since Jesus is God(John 1, 1 Timothy 3:15-16) and no one has seen God(the Father) at any time(John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) but many people in the OT saw and heard God, then logically they saw Jesus(God incarnate). Jesus is also the image of the invisible God(Colossians 1:15) and if you've seen Him you've seen the Father(John 14:9).
We know that people saw and heard God in the OT. How do Unitarians reconcile that with John 5:37?
"And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen,"
That is vain reasoning.
If a comment seems to me just an opinion or the person who says it is not really interested in questioning their point of view, it is not worth answering it, and presenting the biblical bases that support our own point of view.
Jesus would not agree with any kind of "trinity". He respected his Father and God too much to make someone believe that he could be his equal.
If any believer in that "Catholic" dogma could travel back to the time of Jesus, one of two: either they would stop believing in it to really follow Jesus, or they would have joined any sect of mysticism or neoplatonic philosofy, but not to Jesus.
It was totally on purpose. There are comments that are only opinions but do not deserve any response. Also some people are not asking for an answer but a discussion to enter into value judgments and personal disqualifications as you just did.
If a comment seems to me just an opinion or the person who says it is not really interested in questioning their point of view, it is not worth answering it, and presenting the biblical bases that support our own point of view.
Jesus would not agree with any kind of "trinity". He respected his Father and God too much to make someone believe that he could be his equal.
If any believer in that "Catholic" dogma could travel back to the time of Jesus, one of two: either they would stop believing in it to really follow Jesus, or they would have joined any sect of mysticism or neoplatonic philosofy, but not to Jesus.
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First of all I want you to notice my sign off name is "jamesna." I purposefully added the na which means, "no answer." I knew you were going to avoid answering my specific question.
Secondly, why are you here on CARM? CARM is designed to have a dialogue or to debate religious issues. I'm following the Bible's admonition at 1 Peter 3:15. "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a defense to EVERYONE who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
Your not giving answers of what you believe and why you believe it. Just reading one sentence that you wrote above proves my point. You said, "Jesus would not agree with any kind of "trinity". And you know this how? What your doing in "logic" is making an argument from silence. In other words, you have know evidence to support a negative claim of what Jesus would have done.
Also, and at least to me the issue is not about the Trinity teaching. For me it's about, "Who is Jesus Christ?" You advocate He is not God, I advocate He is God the Son. My aim in my question was to prove to you why I believe what I believe. Your aim is just to make unfounded statements based on nothing more than your opinion. Sure, you can quote verses (as an example) that, "There is one God the Father" etc.
In your thinking that's is far as it goes because you do not consider the context of these types of statements. Your not messing around with little kids here, your in the big leagues where you have to prove the position you are taking. This is why I ask you about Genesis 17:1-2. I do things for a reason, not to hear myself talk. In actuality I'm doing you a favor by explaining this stuff to you because I care for your soul.
You on the other hand, don't want to hear it because your mind is closed and not willing to listen to other points of view that just maybe, be right. Look at your last sentence where you said, "If any believer in that "Catholic" dogma could travel back to the time of Jesus, one of two: either they would stop believing in it to really follow Jesus, or they would have joined any sect of mysticism or neoplatonic philosofy, but not to Jesus." What the heck is that suppose to mean? Are you trying to show how intelligent your are?
"So again, who or what person physically appeared to Abraham at Genesis 17:1-2 that claimed to be "God Almighty?"
In Him,
james
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Not in your life does Romans 8:9-11 prove any such thing as Jesus being God, for when we see the words "Spirit of Christ" it is not referring to his own ontology but rather to the Spirit that made him the Christ and through which in this case also, was the Spirit that raised him from the dead and that Spirit was God's Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is [a]alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [b]through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Therefore, what Paul is saying in this passage, was that if one doesn't have the same Spirit, the Spirit of God, that made Jesus in character who he was, the Lord and Christ and through which he was also raised from the dead, you do not belong to Christ or God and therefore neither will you be raised from the dead unto eternal life either.
Once again, the words Spirit of Christ are not referring to Jesus' spirit in regards to his own ontology but rather the Spirit through which he was made the Lord and Christ as per Peter's own words in Acts 22-36, so I suggest you read them and learn the truth James.
I notice that the Spirit of Christ refers to the Spirit that anointed Jesus and by which he was also made Lord and not that it refers to his own spirit in regards to his actual ontology or nature.
Please do show us where the scriptures speak of "God the Son" James?
In fact please show any evidence in the Jewish OT where the Jewish leaders could have possibly come up with the idea that by Jesus calling himself "God's Son or the Son of God" that this ever meant that it made him God himself or equal unto God?
Sorry but there is no such passage in the OT that reveals that Son of God means anything more than a human being who is anointed to rule over God's people and eventually the whole world, for God himself spoke this first to David and Psalms 2:7 and then also to his son in 2 Samuel 7:14.
So we see then, that God called David his Son whom he had begotten to rule for him over his people first and then also his son Solomon, in 2 Samuel 7:14.
Only after them, did the writer of Hebrews in the NT use those same two passages to speak of Jesus who was the greatest of all of David's descendants and through whom the full promise would be completely fulfilled.
Therefore to the contrary of their false accusations against Jesus, their own Jewish OT scriptures given to them by God's Holy Spirit through the prophets, reveal that the words "Son of God" are not to be understood to literally mean a Son in the same nature and ontology as God but rather a promised human heir to rule for God first over his people and then eventually over the whole world.
Yahweh will increase
Well-known member
Tell me this James, if Paul was meaning that Jesus was literally dwelling within each believer like you think he does, then why in the John 16:13-15 does Jesus tell us that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak his words unto us and being he was ascending into heaven and wouldn't be with us anymore in a literal sense?
Here read it yourself and you will see what I mean, for it doesn't make any sense for the Spirit of God to be given to speak on behalf of Jesus if he was literally going to dwell within each believer personally like you think Paul meant he would in Romans 8:9-11.
John 16:
13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears (from Jesus who received the words from God for us), He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; this is why I said that He takes from Mine and will disclose it to you.
I can hardly wait to hear what you are going to come up with in order to try and get out of this one James!
The fact is, Jesus had duplicated into his human nature the very character of God in his Divine nature and as per Hebrews 1:3 and then he upheld it through the rhema of God against the same temptations that all men are tempted with and in perfect obedience.
That is what is meant in Hebrew 1:3 and the words "upholding all things by the rhema of his power", should be understood as "and upholding all things (written in the law of Moses) by the rhema word of God's power.
Thus the same exact character that was in Jesus is the character of the Holy Spirit and that is how Christ is in us.
It is not meaning that Jesus is literally dwelling within us like trins falsely teach about this, for the Holy Spirit communicates Jesus to the believer being the same character and that which was duplicated into Jesus and which Jesus kept by perfect obedience by the rhema of God's power against all temptation.
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