Did Jesus teach he was GOD himself?

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Sorry, the verse does NOT have "the Devil" in the text.
And there's no reason to think it isn't about the God of Abraham.

ROFLOL, of course there is, for if it were speaking of the God of Abraham, it wouldn't have called him only the god of this age, limiting him to this age and not to eternity.

Furthermore, what makes this more ridiculous yet, is the fact that if Paul were speaking of God, he wouldn't even have called him anything else but God, "for God has blinded the eyes of them which believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them".
Here's something you would do well to read:


Not interested, for I don't go by human reasoning and bias when I read scriptures and seek the truth in them.
Wrong again.

Rom. 9:5 ... is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. (ESV).
Rom. 9:5 ... the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! (NET)
Rom. 9:5 ... the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. (HCSB)

So what, for there are other translators who translate it correctly and then it is saying that "Jesus is over all God blessed forever amen".
Sorry, you clearly don't understand Sharp's Rule.
You would have "God and Father" (Rom. 15:6) refer to two different people (because of the "kai").
You would have "Lord and Savior" (2Pet 1:1) refer to two different people (because of the "kai").
You would have "my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier" refer to three different people (because of the "kai").
Sorry but I don't interpret the scriptures through the rules of men or what men say the rules are but by the Spirit and like the scriptures teach we are suppose to also.

Furthermore, my answers have really nothing to do with sharps rules anyhow, for he omits the words "righteousness of" in 2 Peter 1:1 and "glory of" in Titus 2:13 and only focusses on "our God and Savior" or "our Great God and Savior" and whether it is referring to one or two persons by the use of the word "kai" or "and" in both passages.

That is his mistake and as I said, you are going to face the hard facts that these rules really don't help you when it is all said and done.
Nope, sorry... That's not how it works.

Oh really? Sorry is right, for it doesn't work according to how you say it does with all of your worthless academic human reasoning with it, and the training of which also the Apostle Paul called "dung" in Philippians 3 likewise.
When we have two singular personal nouns, of the same case, connected by "kai", and only the first one has the article, both nouns refer to the same person.

ROFLOL, this is what I was saying already in the above, for I agree that it is only speaking of one person in both 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, for it is speaking of Jesus in both and in 2 Peter 1:1 he is calling Jesus "The righteousness of our God and Savior" and in Titus 2:13 he is calling him "the glory of our Great God and Savior" as titles and he is not calling Jesus God in either.

Therefore sharps rule doesn't even refute the truth in it anyhow, for indeed it is speaking titles that Jesus has obtained of God and therefore it is only speaking of him as having these titles.
So "our God and Lord" (2 Thess. 1:12) refers to ONE person, Jesus Christ.



Nope, Jesus is being called "our great God and Saviour", whose glory we will see (since it is Christ who will be appearing, not the Father).

Nope, he is called "the glory of our Great God and Savior" and this is all and the same as Paul calling him "the image of the invisible God" in Colossians 1:15 and they are titles for Jesus because God's image and glory are revealed through Jesus and just like Jesus himself revealed in John 14:10 and Peter also in Acts 2:22.
Nope.
According to Sharp's rule, "God and Saviour" both refer to Jesus.

ROFLOL, sorry but it doesn't apply, for I also believe both "the glory or our Great God and Savior and "the righteousness of our God and Savior" are titles for one person and that person is Jesus Christ but neither are calling Jesus The God himself.
You're simply in denial because you don't know the underlying Greek, and your theological bias is blinding you.

And you are soon enough going to find out that all of that "underlying Greek" bias knowledge that you are substituting for the wisdom that the Holy Spirit teaches (see 1 Corinthians 2:13-16) will not help you at the end of the age when it is all over and said and done.

You can mark those words.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
it is clear reading Isaiah and Revelation that God is the first and the last and He is Jesus .

Isa 41:4
Who has performed this and carried it out, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD--the first and the last--I am He."

Isa 44:6
This is what the LORD, Israel's king, says, their protector, the LORD who commands armies: "I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me.

Revelation 1:17
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last,

Revelation 2:8
To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
ROFLOL, and if I asked you "are you the first and last" of your kind, what would you say?

For every single person who is born into this world is also a "first and last" and which simply means that they are one of a kind and that no one else will be born like them.

So what the words "first and last" mean have to be understood by the context in which they are being used and in Isaiah 41 and 44:6 God is using this term to express that he alone and no one else is The God period".

However in Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 1:8, Jesus is using this term to express the fact that he is the only Messiah who died for our sins, and you can see this in what he says below.

"I am first and last, I am he who was alive and became dead (died for our sins) and behold I am alive forever more (raised from the dead) and have the Keys of death and hell".

The fact that he lived and died and was resurrected to receive the keys of death and hell is another way of saying he is the only Messiah sent from God, "first and last" no one every coming before him and no one every coming after him.

Therefore both the Father and the Son hold to those synonyms "first and last, alpha and omega and beginning and end" but for different reasons, for God it is because he alone is God and for Jesus, it is because he alone is the Christ whom God sent.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Sorry, the verse does NOT have "the Devil" in the text.
And there's no reason to think it isn't about the God of Abraham.

Let me remind you then also, that the word "trinity" isn't in any of the passages that you use to speak of it either but you still believe if anyhow don't you and which makes your argument on this quite ridiculous also.

For there are other places in the scriptures which point to the same truth but using different language to express it and one of them is in Ephesians 2:2 below.

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient".

You see, "the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" is the god of this world and the one in this passage who Paul identifies as "the ruler of the kingdom of the air".

So until someone comes to God through Christ, that spirit (god of this world) is blinding their eyes and indeed God is sovereign over this but it is still the devil who is blinding them with that spirit that is at work within their minds and hearts.

One last thing here, Paul calls him "the god of this age" and this age is temporary and is not eternal and that is just another point that refutes your idea about this because this is age will be over when Jesus returns.


 
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DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
Yes you are correct, I never read fiction in a religious website debating room.. Your breath stinks too but, I would never say that..
Then again, you have the nerve to say that I never quote/use/cite Scripture ???????
How does one " interact " with the New Testament " that is Gods Word not the word of men.. ( yes I know, that it has in many parts, recorded what men have said ) we are to either believe ALL of the OT and NT and act upon ALL or nothing at all.. How do you intend to continue ? Here is a good idea for you, debate Gods Word with God why don't you ?

" I never read fiction in a religious website debating room.." Thank you for admitting that none of your posts are worth reading, You are nothing but a dogmatist who refuses to meaningfully interact with anyone. Whenever you get serious, have at it. Until then farewell.

God Bless
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
It not only follows from scripture, it necessarily follows logically. Again, "The Sabbath was made FOR MAN...etc"

I most certainly can due to the fact that the Sabbath was made FOR human beings. It was made for my benefit just as much as anyone else who chooses to take advantage of this blessing from God.

Your Ad Hominem is noted, and Ignored.

But he never says that God was the word. God is manifested in, with, and through Christ, yet John was probably familiar with 1 Corinthians 8: 6 which clearly distinguishes between God and Christ. Q.E.D.

Existence should never be conflated with origin. Again, see 1 Cor.8:6

Debunked so many times, those who continue to post this are simply engaging in blatant deception.

This doesn't prove squat, and you know it.

"Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

The kingdom of Christ, and God.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(6) Being in the form of God.—(1) The word “being” is here the more emphatic of the two words so translated, which lays stress on the reality of existence (as in Acts 16:20; Acts 17:28; 1Corinthians 11:7; Galatians 2:14). Hence it calls attention to the essential being of Christ, corresponding to the idea embodied in the name Jehovah, and thus implying what is more fully expressed in John 1:1. (2) The word “form” (which, except for a casual use in Mark 16:12, is found only in this passage of the New Testament) is to be carefully distinguished from “fashion.” There can be no doubt that in classical Greek it describes the actual specific character, which (like the structure of a material substance) makes each being what it is; and this same idea is always conveyed in the New Testament by the compound words in which the root “form” is found (Romans 8:29; Romans 12:2; 2Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 4:19). (3) On the other hand, the word “fashion,” as in 1Corinthians 7:31 (“the fashion of this world passeth away”), denotes the mere outward appearance (which we frequently designate as “form”), as will be seen also in its compounds (2Corinthians 11:13-14; 1Peter 1:14). The two words are seen in juxtaposition in Romans 12:2; Philippians 3:21 (where see Notes). Hence, in this passage the “being in the form of God,” describes our Lord’s essential, and therefore eternal, being in the true nature of God; while the “taking on Him the form of a servant” similarly refers to His voluntary assumption of the true nature of man.

"thought it not a prize to be grasped at to be equal with God," is somehow ignored by those who would rather grasp at it for him.

Note the preposition "en" which denotes within, and should never be conflated with the form itself. You're conflating the contents with the container.

Our God, and Lord Jesus Christ.

The glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ. This example as well as the rest are all due to how one chooses to add their own punctuation which in many cases depends upon their preconceived ideas of the Trinity.

The righteousness of our God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

"But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER,"

It doesn't get more straightforward than that. How many Gods? ONE. Who is God? THE FATHER.

"...OF whom are all things,"

Denoting the ORIGIN of everything.

".. and we in him;"

By YOUR logic, this makes us God as well!!!!

"... and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we BY him.” 1 Cor.8:6

Denoting the MEANS by which everything comes into existence.

By your logic, we can just as easily conflate origin and means as well as the father and son. You don't do this so you are being inconsistent in your logic.

Your snide remarks and Ad Hominem are becoming too tiresome for me to bother with any further. I don't see that you're here to engage in an honest discussion so may you go with God. Be blessed.
BY Whom are ALL things???
Wow! The Son is The Creator of ALL.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
ROFLOL, and if I asked you "are you the first and last" of your kind, what would you say?

For every single person who is born into this world is also a "first and last" and which simply means that they are one of a kind and that no one else will be born like them.

So what the words "first and last" mean have to be understood by the context in which they are being used and in Isaiah 41 and 44:6 God is using this term to express that he alone and no one else is The God period".

However in Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 1:8, Jesus is using this term to express the fact that he is the only Messiah who died for our sins, and you can see this in what he says below.

"I am first and last, I am he who was alive and became dead (died for our sins) and behold I am alive forever more (raised from the dead) and have the Keys of death and hell".

The fact that he lived and died and was resurrected to receive the keys of death and hell is another way of saying he is the only Messiah sent from God, "first and last" no one every coming before him and no one every coming after him.

Therefore both the Father and the Son hold to those synonyms "first and last, alpha and omega and beginning and end" but for different reasons, for God it is because he alone is God and for Jesus, it is because he alone is the Christ whom God sent.
The First and The Last in Revelation is the SAME meaning as in Isaiah 41 & 44:6.
God is the origin of ALL things and the Ending of ALL things.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
ROFLOL, of course there is, for if it were speaking of the God of Abraham, it wouldn't have called him only the god of this age, limiting him to this age and not to eternity.

Furthermore, what makes this more ridiculous yet, is the fact that if Paul were speaking of God, he wouldn't even have called him anything else but God, "for God has blinded the eyes of them which believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them".


Not interested, for I don't go by human reasoning and bias when I read scriptures and seek the truth in them.


So what, for there are other translators who translate it correctly and then it is saying that "Jesus is over all God blessed forever amen".

Sorry but I don't interpret the scriptures through the rules of men or what men say the rules are but by the Spirit and like the scriptures teach we are suppose to also.

Furthermore, my answers have really nothing to do with sharps rules anyhow, for he omits the words "righteousness of" in 2 Peter 1:1 and "glory of" in Titus 2:13 and only focusses on "our God and Savior" or "our Great God and Savior" and whether it is referring to one or two persons by the use of the word "kai" or "and" in both passages.

That is his mistake and as I said, you are going to face the hard facts that these rules really don't help you when it is all said and done.


Oh really? Sorry is right, for it doesn't work according to how you say it does with all of your worthless academic human reasoning with it, and the training of which also the Apostle Paul called "dung" in Philippians 3 likewise.


ROFLOL, this is what I was saying already in the above, for I agree that it is only speaking of one person in both 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, for it is speaking of Jesus in both and in 2 Peter 1:1 he is calling Jesus "The righteousness of our God and Savior" and in Titus 2:13 he is calling him "the glory of our Great God and Savior" as titles and he is not calling Jesus God in either.

Therefore sharps rule doesn't even refute the truth in it anyhow, for indeed it is speaking titles that Jesus has obtained of God and therefore it is only speaking of him as having these titles.


Nope, he is called "the glory of our Great God and Savior" and this is all and the same as Paul calling him "the image of the invisible God" in Colossians 1:15 and they are titles for Jesus because God's image and glory are revealed through Jesus and just like Jesus himself revealed in John 14:10 and Peter also in Acts 2:22.


ROFLOL, sorry but it doesn't apply, for I also believe both "the glory or our Great God and Savior and "the righteousness of our God and Savior" are titles for one person and that person is Jesus Christ but neither are calling Jesus The God himself.


And you are soon enough going to find out that all of that "underlying Greek" bias knowledge that you are substituting for the wisdom that the Holy Spirit teaches (see 1 Corinthians 2:13-16) will not help you at the end of the age when it is all over and said and done.

You can mark those words.
Christ is OVER ALL???
Wow! He is God.
 

DoctrinesofGraceBapt

Well-known member
It not only follows from scripture, it necessarily follows logically. Again, "The Sabbath was made FOR MAN...etc"

That it was made for man doesn't make us lord over it,

John: "and the Word was God" (John 1:1);
But he never says that God was the word. God is manifested in, with, and through Christ, yet John was probably familiar with 1 Corinthians 8: 6 which clearly distinguishes between God and Christ. Q.E.D.

And? Jesus is the Word and "the Word was God". The argument is done. Unless you want to deny Scripture, your position is incorrect. Jesus is God.

BTW, that Scripture distinguishes between the persons of the Father and the Son doesn't imply that Jesus' essential nature isn't that of the one true God. The Father is God in that his essential nature is that of the one true God. He generally goes by the title God. The Son is God in that his essential nature is that of the one true God. He generally goes by the title Lord. Two distinct persons with different titles who are the same God.


Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58);
Existence should never be conflated with origin. Again, see 1 Cor.8:6

As if John 8:58 is about existence. You clearly don't read much OT; do you?

Thomas calling Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28);
Debunked so many times, those who continue to post this are simply engaging in blatant deception.

Debunked? You're now debunking Scripture to pretend your theology is okay?

I would continue going through your responses to these texts, but you clearly don't care. It's far easier to pretend they don't say what they clearly say, Skipping ahead.


Paul: "[Christ Jesus] though He was in the form of God" (Phil. 2:6);
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(6) Being in the form of God.—(1) The word “being” is here the more emphatic of the two words so translated, which lays stress on the reality of existence (as in Acts 16:20; Acts 17:28; 1Corinthians 11:7; Galatians 2:14). Hence it calls attention to the essential being of Christ, corresponding to the idea embodied in the name Jehovah, and thus implying what is more fully expressed in John 1:1. (2) The word “form” (which, except for a casual use in Mark 16:12, is found only in this passage of the New Testament) is to be carefully distinguished from “fashion.” There can be no doubt that in classical Greek it describes the actual specific character, which (like the structure of a material substance) makes each being what it is; and this same idea is always conveyed in the New Testament by the compound words in which the root “form” is found (Romans 8:29; Romans 12:2; 2Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 4:19). (3) On the other hand, the word “fashion,” as in 1Corinthians 7:31 (“the fashion of this world passeth away”), denotes the mere outward appearance (which we frequently designate as “form”), as will be seen also in its compounds (2Corinthians 11:13-14; 1Peter 1:14). The two words are seen in juxtaposition in Romans 12:2; Philippians 3:21 (where see Notes). Hence, in this passage the “being in the form of God,” describes our Lord’s essential, and therefore eternal, being in the true nature of God; while the “taking on Him the form of a servant” similarly refers to His voluntary assumption of the true nature of man.

"thought it not a prize to be grasped at to be equal with God," is somehow ignored by those who would rather grasp at it for him.

Did you read the commentary you quoted? Are you switching sides now? Why are you making my case stronger? Yes, Jesus not thinking the equality he had with God was something to continue to grasp onto emptied himself to assume the true nature of man. No one is ignoring the equality part. Such makes our argument stronger.

Our God, and Lord Jesus Christ.
The glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ. This example as well as the rest are all due to how one chooses to add their own punctuation which in many cases depends upon their preconceived ideas of the Trinity.

Do you like rewriting Scripture. Greek grammar doesn't allow one to see God and Lord/Savior as distinct persons in these passages, cf Granville Sharp's rule. That's why honest modern translations don't add the comma. If they did, they would be purposefully mistranslating it.

"But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER,"
It doesn't get more straightforward than that. How many Gods? ONE. Who is God? THE FATHER.
"...OF whom are all things,"
Denoting the ORIGIN of everything.
".. and we in him;"
By YOUR logic, this makes us God as well!!!!
"... and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we BY him.” 1 Cor.8:6
Denoting the MEANS by which everything comes into existence.
By your logic, we can just as easily conflate origin and means as well as the father and son. You don't do this so you are being inconsistent in your logic.
Your snide remarks and Ad Hominem are becoming too tiresome for me to bother with any further. I don't see that you're here to engage in an honest discussion so may you go with God. Be blessed.

Do you have the capacity to not misrepresent my logic? I hope so, but you are clearly ignorant of my logic. Maybe someday you will realize that arguments based upon misrepresentations are not sound. Until then, consider this: When did God the Father stop being Lord?

God Bless
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
ROFLOL, and if I asked you "are you the first and last" of your kind, what would you say?

For every single person who is born into this world is also a "first and last" and which simply means that they are one of a kind and that no one else will be born like them.

So what the words "first and last" mean have to be understood by the context in which they are being used and in Isaiah 41 and 44:6 God is using this term to express that he alone and no one else is The God period".

However in Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 1:8, Jesus is using this term to express the fact that he is the only Messiah who died for our sins, and you can see this in what he says below.

"I am first and last, I am he who was alive and became dead (died for our sins) and behold I am alive forever more (raised from the dead) and have the Keys of death and hell".

The fact that he lived and died and was resurrected to receive the keys of death and hell is another way of saying he is the only Messiah sent from God, "first and last" no one every coming before him and no one every coming after him.

Therefore both the Father and the Son hold to those synonyms "first and last, alpha and omega and beginning and end" but for different reasons, for God it is because he alone is God and for Jesus, it is because he alone is the Christ whom God sent.
I see you are one with the JW!

Clearly the following is Jesus.
12¶And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

In Rev 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Jesus, by using this title is saying He is YHWH.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
I see you are one with the JW!

Clearly the following is Jesus.
12¶And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

In Rev 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Jesus, by using this title is saying He is YHWH.
Nope and beside this, the Father often speaks through Jesus being he is dwelling within him and giving him the words to speak on his behalf and Jesus actually revealed this in John 14:10.

For when after Philip asked Jesus "show us the Father and it will be sufficient for us" and Jesus answered "have I be so long with you Philip and yet you still don't know me" Jesus went on to explain in that 10th verse that those words were from the Father and not himself, for Jesus is the Temple of God and God communicates through Jesus.

Here read it again yourself.


John 14:
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.



Therefore., when Jesus said "don't you know me Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time", it was the Father speaking through Jesus and not Jesus and Jesus even says this in verse 10, "the words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own authority, rather it is the Father living in me, he is doing his work".

If you read Revelation 1:1-2, you will see, that the Revelation was what God gave to Jesus to reveal and therefore you have Jesus sometimes speaking for himself and other times speaking for God the Father and at other times you have the angel speaking for both the Father and the Son and also at other times speaking for himself as the angel that was sent to communicated it unto John.

This is what Thomas was also taught and why when he saw Jesus standing in front of him alive from the dead, although speaking it to Jesus, he was not speaking only to Jesus but also to the Father who was dwelling within Jesus and which was the only way Jesus could have been standing in front of him alive from the dead anyhow.

For Paul makes this clear in Romans 8 below.


Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Therefore it wasn't only Jesus in the room with Thomas when Jesus appeared unto him alive from the dead but God the Father was also there and had to be in order for Jesus to be standing their alive from the dead, for apart from the indwelling of God the Father, there is no resurrection unto life eternal.

John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".


John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me".
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Nope and beside this, the Father often speaks through Jesus being he is dwelling within him and giving him the words to speak on his behalf and Jesus actually revealed this in John 14:10.

For when after Philip asked Jesus "show us the Father and it will be sufficient for us" and Jesus answered "have I be so long with you Philip and yet you still don't know me" Jesus went on to explain in that 10th verse that those words were from the Father and not himself, for Jesus is the Temple of God and God communicates through Jesus.

Here read it again yourself.


John 14:
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.



Therefore., when Jesus said "don't you know me Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time", it was the Father speaking through Jesus and not Jesus and Jesus even says this in verse 10, "the words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own authority, rather it is the Father living in me, he is doing his work".

If you read Revelation 1:1-2, you will see, that the Revelation was what God gave to Jesus to reveal and therefore you have Jesus sometimes speaking for himself and other times speaking for God the Father and at other times you have the angel speaking for both the Father and the Son and also at other times speaking for himself as the angel that was sent to communicated it unto John.

This is what Thomas was also taught and why when he saw Jesus standing in front of him alive from the dead, although speaking it to Jesus, he was not speaking only to Jesus but also to the Father who was dwelling within Jesus and which was the only way Jesus could have been standing in front of him alive from the dead anyhow.

For Paul makes this clear in Romans 8 below.


Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Therefore it wasn't only Jesus in the room with Thomas when Jesus appeared unto him alive from the dead but God the Father was also there and had to be in order for Jesus to be standing their alive from the dead, for apart from the indwelling of God the Father, there is no resurrection unto life eternal.

John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".


John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me".
He who has SEEN The Son has SEEN The Father????
Wow! The Son must be God.
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
Nope and beside this, the Father often speaks through Jesus being he is dwelling within him and giving him the words to speak on his behalf and Jesus actually revealed this in John 14:10.

For when after Philip asked Jesus "show us the Father and it will be sufficient for us" and Jesus answered "have I be so long with you Philip and yet you still don't know me" Jesus went on to explain in that 10th verse that those words were from the Father and not himself, for Jesus is the Temple of God and God communicates through Jesus.

Here read it again yourself.


John 14:
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.



Therefore., when Jesus said "don't you know me Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time", it was the Father speaking through Jesus and not Jesus and Jesus even says this in verse 10, "the words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own authority, rather it is the Father living in me, he is doing his work".

If you read Revelation 1:1-2, you will see, that the Revelation was what God gave to Jesus to reveal and therefore you have Jesus sometimes speaking for himself and other times speaking for God the Father and at other times you have the angel speaking for both the Father and the Son and also at other times speaking for himself as the angel that was sent to communicated it unto John.

This is what Thomas was also taught and why when he saw Jesus standing in front of him alive from the dead, although speaking it to Jesus, he was not speaking only to Jesus but also to the Father who was dwelling within Jesus and which was the only way Jesus could have been standing in front of him alive from the dead anyhow.

For Paul makes this clear in Romans 8 below.


Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Therefore it wasn't only Jesus in the room with Thomas when Jesus appeared unto him alive from the dead but God the Father was also there and had to be in order for Jesus to be standing their alive from the dead, for apart from the indwelling of God the Father, there is no resurrection unto life eternal.

John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".


John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me".
I KNOW the WORD who is GOD came down from HEAVEN(the highest) and the FATHER(GOD) gave HIM (Jesus his Son) life as a human .
John
1¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

So their you have the explanation for He Jesus was speaking as a man(Human) these words.

John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".
John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me"

To read about Him before He became a human see Isaiah 6.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
I KNOW the WORD who is GOD came down from HEAVEN(the highest) and the FATHER(GOD) gave HIM (Jesus his Son) life as a human .
John

Do you have any idea at all how absolutely ridiculous your idea is on this?

So Jesus didn't have his own life as God to supply to his own human body in order to become a man huh?

ROFLOL, pure comical nonsense.
1¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
Sorry but it doesn't matter what the Logos was in the Beginning, for when it was made "ginomai" flesh, it became flesh period.

For that Greek word "ginomai" as used throughout scripture never refers to a substance only being added to another without a change being made in it's nature, like water that was made "ginomai" wine by Jesus in his first public miracle.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

More nonsense, for why did Jesus have to be conceived by the Holy Spirit if Jesus was fully God himself and as God had his own life and would have been able to put himself into the womb of Mary to be made flesh?

How you could even think that your passage from Matthew 1:18 helps you in your nonsense would be a wonder if I didn't know from my own experience of being a trinitarian myself for better than 30 years, how absolutely mesmerized and brain washed trins are.
So their you have the explanation for He Jesus was speaking as a man(Human) these words.

John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".
John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me"

ROFLOL, first off, where did Jesus specify that he was only speaking as a man in those passages and how many persons is Jesus anyhow, is he also a trinity in your mixed up nonsense?

Again, if he had his own life as God, he wouldn't have needed to receive his human life from God, for he would have been able to give life unto his humanity by his own life that he had as being God himself and that is just how ridiculous your idea is about this.
To read about Him before He became a human see Isaiah 6.
Sorry but Isaiah 6:1-5 isn't about Jesus but rather Yahweh was revealing himself to Isaiah as part of his calling to be a prophet and mediator for God and his words to Israel.

This is yet another nonsensical idea of trins that John 12:37-41 was speaking of Isaiah 6:1-5 as referring to the glory of Jesus that Isaiah saw and when he never mentioned that passage but rather Isaiah 53 as being that glory instead.

Incidentally, right in the very same context in John 12:23 Jesus himself speaks of his glory as being the hour of his suffering and death and the same as what Isaiah saw and wrote of in Isaiah 53.


Here read it again yourself below.

John 12:
23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.



Now go read Isaiah 53 where he saw this glory about Jesus also and spoke of it and wrote about it in this chapter and this is what John mentioned as being the glory and it goes along with the context of Jesus own words in the above from the same chapter and context.
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
Do you have any idea at all how absolutely ridiculous your idea is on this?

So Jesus didn't have his own life as God to supply to his own human body in order to become a man huh?

ROFLOL, pure comical nonsense.

Sorry but it doesn't matter what the Logos was in the Beginning, for when it was made "ginomai" flesh, it became flesh period.

For that Greek word "ginomai" as used throughout scripture never refers to a substance only being added to another without a change being made in it's nature, like water that was made "ginomai" wine by Jesus in his first public miracle.



More nonsense, for why did Jesus have to be conceived by the Holy Spirit if Jesus was fully God himself and as God had his own life and would have been able to put himself into the womb of Mary to be made flesh?

How you could even think that your passage from Matthew 1:18 helps you in your nonsense would be a wonder if I didn't know from my own experience of being a trinitarian myself for better than 30 years, how absolutely mesmerized and brain washed trins are.


ROFLOL, first off, where did Jesus specify that he was only speaking as a man in those passages and how many persons is Jesus anyhow, is he also a trinity in your mixed up nonsense?

Again, if he had his own life as God, he wouldn't have needed to receive his human life from God, for he would have been able to give life unto his humanity by his own life that he had as being God himself and that is just how ridiculous your idea is about this.

Sorry but Isaiah 6:1-5 isn't about Jesus but rather Yahweh was revealing himself to Isaiah as part of his calling to be a prophet and mediator for God and his words to Israel.

This is yet another nonsensical idea of trins that John 12:37-41 was speaking of Isaiah 6:1-5 as referring to the glory of Jesus that Isaiah saw and when he never mentioned that passage but rather Isaiah 53 as being that glory instead.

Incidentally, right in the very same context in John 12:23 Jesus himself speaks of his glory as being the hour of his suffering and death and the same as what Isaiah saw and wrote of in Isaiah 53.


Here read it again yourself below.

John 12:
23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.



Now go read Isaiah 53 where he saw this glory about Jesus also and spoke of it and wrote about it in this chapter and this is what John mentioned as being the glory and it goes along with the context of Jesus own words in the above from the same chapter and context.
That is the way it was done. The Lord came down and was born a man. The Son of Man.
Life as a human was done by His Father.

Isaiah saw the Lord, not the Father.

1¶In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

5¶Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

39¶Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John 12:41 KJV — These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.


Luke 3:4 KJV — As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Not the Father!
Exodus 33:20 KJV — And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
That is the way it was done. The Lord came down and was born a man. The Son of Man.
Life as a human was done by His Father.
Says who you? LOL.

Nowhere did Jesus ever separate himself into two natures like you want to believe but when he spoke, he spoke as one person, nature and being and he even used the word "Son" in John 5:26 as well, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".

He is by no means separating his being a man from his being something else here but he is speaking as the human Son of God that was conceived by the Holy Spirit and which is when God gave him to have that life to dwell within him and just like he says in John 5:26 and John 6:57.

This also proves that Jesus could not have given his life back to himself as you falsely take John 2:19-22 John 10:17-18 to mean in your hell bent religious bias and brainwashing about it.

For he very clearly states that God gave him the life originally and therefore it would be God who would also have to give it back to Jesus at his resurrection and after he died for sins first and which he did also.
Isaiah saw the Lord, not the Father.

Where does it say that Isaiah didn't see the Father? You are making that up in order to save face with your false doctrine, for it very clearly says "I saw "Yahweh" high and lifted up" Period.

So do you want to argue now that the Father is not Yahweh God?

Nevertheless, Isaiah 6:1-5 never states that Isaiah saw Yahweh's face or full glory and which Yahweh himself in Exodus 33:18-23 said that no man could see and live after seeing it.

1¶In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

5¶Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

39¶Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John 12:41 KJV — These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Sorry but John in chapter 12:37-41 never mentions Isaiah 6:1-5 as being the glory of the Messiah but rather he mentions Isaiah 53 and the report of Jesus and which reveals him as the one who would suffer for their sins and he is following along in the context from Jesus' own words in verses 23-33 where Jesus even mentions that he would be glorified in his hour of suffering on the cross.

This is the same glory of Jesus that Isaiah gave his report on in chapter 53 of his prophecy and this is the only glory of Jesus that John is revealing that Isaiah saw period.
Luke 3:4 KJV — As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

LOL! This could also be said of God's working his way through Moses and his working his way through Elijah and Elisha and about his working HIs way through Joshua and the Judges, and through Paul and the other disciples, for they all were doing everything that they were doing for God and his way.

Therefore your idea that the LORD = Yahweh had to be Jesus is false, for just like all of these other men who God also work through, Jesus was God's instrument to accomplish his way through and John the Baptist came to prepare the way, for the LORD Yahweh to work through the instrument of Jesus his unique human Son.
Not the Father!
Exodus 33:20 KJV — And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

ROFLOL, sorry for neither the words "Father or Son or even Holy Spirit are used in this text but only God's name Yahweh and Yahweh said that no man could see his face and live period, read it again and learn.


Exodus 33:

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

20 But,” he (Yahweh) said, “you cannot see my (Yahweh's) face, for no one may see me (Yahweh) and live.”

21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock.

22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.

23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
 
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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
That is the way it was done. The Lord came down and was born a man. The Son of Man.
Life as a human was done by His Father.

By the way, nowhere does it say that the Lord came down and was born a man as of his own volition, but rather it says that the Holy Spirit came down and overshadowed Mary and through which Jesus was conceived in her womb.

That is just another of many problems with trin and oneness doctrine, for if Jesus was fully God and totally mature as being God and also having his own life as being God, then he would have been able to come down of his own volition and enter into the womb of Mary and give life to his own flesh instead of the Father giving him the life to dwell within him and like he stated in John 5:26.

The fact is, what came down from heaven by the Holy Spirit, was a new male seed not coming from the procreation of Adam but created by God in heaven and then sent down through the Holy Spirit to enter into the womb of Mary and be born to be the unique human Son of God.

For even his birth was unique, being no other man was ever conceived this way and therefore even in this sense, Jesus was the only born human heir and Son of God, for all others were born as procreated from Adam except Adam and he wasn't born at all but rather created as a already a full grown man.
 
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Tanachreader

Well-known member
By the way, nowhere does it say that the Lord came down and was born a man as of his own volition, but rather it says that the Holy Spirit came down and overshadowed Mary and through which Jesus was conceived in her womb.

That is just another of many problems with trin and oneness doctrine, for if Jesus was fully God and totally mature as being God and also having his own life as being God, then he would have been able to come down of his own volition and enter into the womb of Mary and give life to his own flesh instead of the Father giving him the life to dwell within him and like he stated in John 5:26.

The fact is, what came down from heaven by the Holy Spirit, was a new male seed not coming from the procreation of Adam but created by God in heaven and then sent down through the Holy Spirit to enter into the womb of Mary and be born to be the unique human Son of God.

For even his birth was unique, being no other man was ever conceived this way and therefore even in this sense, Jesus was the only born human heir and Son of God, for all others were born as procreated from Adam except Adam and he wasn't born at all but rather created as a already a full grown man.
Again,
John 17:5 KJV — And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 6:38 (NASB) “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Again,
John 17:5 KJV — And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 6:38 (NASB) “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
ROFLOL and again, the context of John 17 doesn't start with verse 5 but rather with verse 1 and it includes verse 3 first and where Jesus made it very clear that The Father is The Only True God and before he said what he did in John 17:5 and therefore, whatever the glory is in verse 5 it cannot be that of God dude.

You trins are a real piece of work, for you will go to colleges to learn Greek and Hebrew grammar because you think it will make it clear that your doctrine is the truth and yet when you read verses like 17:3 where the grammar makes it clear that there is only one person who is The True God, you reject it for your own bias and false ideas about it.

That is why I have absolutely no respect for your so called "Bible Scholars" at all, for the grammar in John 17:3 is some of the simplest and easy to understand in the Bible and Jesus' words in that passage are the very basis for whether one has eternal life and is saved or not.


Therefore he made himself very clear and by the use of that word "monos" or as it is translated to English "only" in that adjective phrase that modifies only the Father in the sentence, there is no way around the fact that Jesus told us that the single person of the Father alone is The True God and that Jesus on the other hand is the Christ whom he sent.


As far as John 6:38 is concerned, I have no problem with that at all, being Jesus as a new created male seed was sent from God by the Holy Spirit into the womb of Mary to be born the unique human heir and Son of God, and therefore indeed Jesus did most certainly come down from heaven.

However, the Bible also tells us that the Father sent him and therefore he didn't come of his own volition as being the second person of your mythological god like you falsely believe he did.


John 8:42 “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”


Notice also in the above passage, Jesus didn't say it was the Father who sent him this time but rather he said it was God that sent him and also that he didn't send himself and this also proves that he cannot be God dude.

Therefore, he started as the male seed of the New Creation and was sent from God in heaven and implanted by the Holy Spirit into the womb of Mary because he couldn't implant himself into her womb as a new created by God male seed and that is why he had to be conceived by the Holy Spirit.
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
ROFLOL and again, the context of John 17 doesn't start with verse 5 but rather with verse 1 and it includes verse 3 first and where Jesus made it very clear that The Father is The Only True God and before he said what he did in John 17:5 and therefore, whatever the glory is in verse 5 it cannot be that of God dude.

You trins are a real piece of work, for you will go to colleges to learn Greek and Hebrew grammar because you think it will make it clear that your doctrine is the truth and yet when you read verses like 17:3 where the grammar makes it clear that there is only one person who is The True God, you reject it for your own bias and false ideas about it.

That is why I have absolutely no respect for your so called "Bible Scholars" at all, for the grammar in John 17:3 is some of the simplest and easy to understand in the Bible and Jesus' words in that passage are the very basis for whether one has eternal life and is saved or not.


Therefore he made himself very clear and by the use of that word "monos" or as it is translated to English "only" in that adjective phrase that modifies only the Father in the sentence, there is no way around the fact that Jesus told us that the single person of the Father alone is The True God and that Jesus on the other hand is the Christ whom he sent.


As far as John 6:38 is concerned, I have no problem with that at all, being Jesus as a new created male seed was sent from God by the Holy Spirit into the womb of Mary to be born the unique human heir and Son of God, and therefore indeed Jesus did most certainly come down from heaven.

However, the Bible also tells us that the Father sent him and therefore he didn't come of his own volition as being the second person of your mythological god like you falsely believe he did.


John 8:42 “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”


Notice also in the above passage, Jesus didn't say it was the Father who sent him this time but rather he said it was God that sent him and also that he didn't send himself and this also proves that he cannot be God dude.

Therefore, he started as the male seed of the New Creation and was sent from God in heaven and implanted by the Holy Spirit into the womb of Mary because he couldn't implant himself into her womb as a new created by God male seed and that is why he had to be conceived by the Holy Spirit.
The Lord said He came down from heaven. He also said He was with the Father before the world.
So I know what the Lord said and I know what you keep saying.
I and most others believe the Lord.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The Lord said He came down from heaven. He also said He was with the Father before the world.
So I know what the Lord said and I know what you keep saying.
I and most others believe the Lord.
No, he never said he was with the Father before the world was, but rather that he had glory with the Father before the world was and the word "glory" refers to his high esteem, value and worth with God in God's foreknowledge of him before the world was and because of what he would accomplish in his suffering and death and as also per 1 Peter 1:20.

Furthermore, it is the same glory spoken of in the first verse of John 17 that both he and the Father God would be glorified with together from his hour of suffering and death and Jesus spoke of this also in John 12:23-33 below.

John 12:

23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.

28 Father, glorify your name!

Then a voice came from heaven,I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.



Sorry but this is the glory that John was speaking of and that Isaiah saw and it is the same glory that Jesus mentioned in John 17:1 and 5 also and of which Jesus had with God in God's foreknowledge of his suffering and death before the world was.


1 Peter 1:20 "(Jesus the human Son of God) who truly was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifested for you"
 
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