Did Joseph Smith see God or was he only pretending?

[Janice Bower]

Doctrine & Covenants 84

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

NOTE FOR POSTER--only two links per post allowed for non-super members.

 

[Bonnie]

Pretending...later on, I think he came to believe in his own lies.

 

[Janice Bower]

But Joseph Smith claimed he saw God before he held the Melchizedek Priesthood. Then he claimed that
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

D&C 84!

 

[dberrie2020]

Doctrine & Covenants 84

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

God usually appears to mankind in a "vision". Such as--"the first vision".

 

[brotherofJared]

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

It does not say who had to have the priesthood. It only states that the priesthood is necessary or man cannot see the face of God and live. God has that priesthood. If it said, "for if man did not have this priesthood, he could not see the face of God, even the Father, and live". But it doesn't say that, does it? That's just the interpretation you want to lay on it. Kind of giving it your own twist seeking a end that you have no means of getting to.

A little earlier than this verse in the same section, (verse 17), it repeats Heb 7:3 making it clear that it is the priesthood that is without beginning of days or end of years. IOW, the priesthood is eternal. It's not something God made up. It's not a Jedi sword that someone manufactured. It is through the power of the priesthood that man can be in the presence of God, not by holding that priesthood that grants men that privilege.

In fact, when you think about it, it has to be that way or else God could never give the priesthood to any man (I am assuming that the keys can only be passed by the physical laying on of hands, one physical being to another). But to be in the presence of God, face to face doesn't require everyone to hold the priesthood. If that were true, then women couldn't be in the presence of God (and that sure isn't our theology. That's just an issue you've created but it's baseless).

 

[Magdalena]

It does not say who had to have the priesthood. It only states that the priesthood is necessary or man cannot see the face of God and live. God has that priesthood. If it said, "for if man did not have this priesthood, he could not see the face of God, even the Father, and live". But it doesn't say that, does it? That's just the interpretation you want to lay on it. Kind of giving it your own twist seeking a end that you have no means of getting to.

A little earlier than this verse in the same section, (verse 17), it repeats Heb 7:3 making it clear that it is the priesthood that is without beginning of days or end of years. IOW, the priesthood is eternal. It's not something God made up. It's not a Jedi sword that someone manufactured. It is through the power of the priesthood that man can be in the presence of God, not by holding that priesthood that grants men that privilege.

In fact, when you think about it, it has to be that way or else God could never give the priesthood to any man (I am assuming that the keys can only be passed by the physical laying on of hands, one physical being to another). But to be in the presence of God, face to face doesn't require everyone to hold the priesthood. If that were true, then women couldn't be in the presence of God (and that sure isn't our theology. That's just an issue you've created but it's baseless).

Did you just gloss over verses 1-5? It’s a false prophesy about building a temple and city of New Jerusalem on the Temple Lot in Missouri during that generation.

Nothing that comes after that should be taken with any credibility.

 

[brotherofJared]

Did you just gloss over verses 1-5?

Tell me, what did I miss?

It’s a false prophesy about building a temple and city of New Jerusalem on the Temple Lot in Missouri during that generation.

So? This thread isn't about temples or verses 1-5. Have you read the OP?

Nothing that comes after that should be taken with any credibility.

We aren't even arguing credibility. The argument is about what he said. The OP assumes that Joseph Smith is saying that the person seeing the face of God can only do so if he old the priesthood. That's not what he said.

Besides, nothing in the book has any credibility as far as you're concerned anyway, so why don't you ask me if I missed Section 1 verses 1-5 and then claim that nothing after that should be taken with any credibility? We already know your animus. Try arguing the point being made.

 

[Magdalena]

Tell me, what did I miss?

So? This thread isn't about temples or verses 1-5. Have you read the OP?

We aren't even arguing credibility. The argument is about what he said. The OP assumes that Joseph Smith is saying that the person seeing the face of God can only do so if he old the priesthood. That's not what he said.

Besides, nothing in the book has any credibility as far as you're concerned anyway, so why don't you ask me if I missed Section 1 verses 1-5 and then claim that nothing after that should be taken with any credibility? We already know your animus. Try arguing the point being made.

The thread is about whether Smith saw God or was only pretending. The first 5 verses of Section 84 give you the answer. He made it up.

 

[CrowCross]

Doctrine & Covenants 84

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

NOTE FOR POSTER--only two links per post allowed for non-super members.

I'm going with Satan appearing as an angel of light.

 

[Richard7]

Doctrine & Covenants 84

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

NOTE FOR POSTER--only two links per post allowed for non-super members.

This is so tiring, eventually and hopefully you will actually understand LDS doctrine..

The word "this" in verse 22 does not refer to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but rather to "the power of godliness"​

The word "this" in verse 22 does not refer to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but rather to "the power of godliness." [4] One of the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood is the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (see DC 49:14). As the Lord explained in an 1831 revelation, "no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God" (DC 67:11).
LDS.org

 

[Richard7]

Pretending...later on, I think he came to believe in his own lies.

I really wonder if Janice was really a Mormon! her learning and memory are suspicious since she constantly misrepresents our doctrine.

The word "this" in verse 22 does not refer to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but rather to "the power of godliness"​

The word "this" in verse 22 does not refer to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but rather to "the power of godliness.
Source from above given..

 

[brotherofJared]

The word "this" in verse 22 does not refer to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but rather to "the power of godliness"

In my vernacular, those two things, the priesthood and the power of godliness are the same thing. I think the point is that it doesn't refer to the holders of the priesthood. IOW, Joseph did not need to hold the priesthood but that the power of that priesthood transfigured him so that he could see the face of God and live.

Nothing in the text even remotely supports the claim our critics supposes.