Did Ravi Zacharias Persevere in the Faith or not?

civic

Well-known member
Please give me an example of the Gospel Ravi Zacharias preached, because I'm not aware he preached another gospel...
Check this out from Piper


Three Ministers Who Fell Away​

Let me begin with some biblical background of gospel ministers, who, for a season, spoke the truth in useful ways, and then made shipwreck of their lives — indeed, their faith. I’m using these illustrations from the Bible, and I’m thinking here of Judas, Demas, and Hymenaeus — all of whom are explicitly named by Jesus and Paul.

Judas: Son of Perdition​

According to John 12:4–8, Judas was very critical of Mary’s anointing Jesus’s feet with an expensive perfume. And he said, “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” (John 12:5). And John comments, “He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it” (John 12:6).

In other words, for a long time — about three years, say — Judas was abusing the Lord’s trust by stealing what others had given to the ministry. And I assume that during all this time, he was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, that he was sent out two by two with others, that he worked miracles, that he enjoyed the most intimate conversations with the Son of God, Jesus Christ — all the while being a “son of perdition” (John 17:12 KJV).

Judas’s deception was so exceptional that none of the other twelve even suspected him of sedition and betrayal — because they were stunned at the Last Supper when Jesus said, “One of you will betray me” (Matthew 26:21). They didn’t all look at Judas and say, “Oh, of course, it’s Judas.” He was a master of deceit.

And what if, among the many people who were converted into followers of Jesus, some of them had been healed by Judas, and had responded to his preaching with faith in Jesus? His preaching was so orthodox, so apparently authentic, that no apostles were looking at him saying, “Well, Judas never gets it right.” They weren’t. He was getting it right. He was preaching the truth.

And lest anyone think that a phony apostle can’t do miracles, remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:22–23,

On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?” And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”
And those works of lawlessness would, of course, include things like pervasive deception; greedy, lavish use of ministry funds; harmful manipulation of other people for your own private pleasures; adulterous dalliances; continually making provision for the flesh against the explicit command of the apostle in Romans 13:13–14.

Demas: Infatuated with This Age​

And then there’s Demas. Twice we hear from Paul that he is a faithful partner in gospel work alongside Paul.

  • Colossians 4:14: “Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.” He greets you.
  • Philemon 23–24: “Epaphras . . . sends greetings to you, and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.” Demas is ranked as a fellow worker in the gospel alongside Luke, of all people.
And then, in his last letter, in 2 Timothy 4:10, come these horrible words: “Demas, in love with this present age, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica.” So, it appears that, for several years, Demas was a trusted gospel partner with Paul, just like Judas was with Jesus. And during that time, there’s no reason to think that he didn’t preach the gospel truly and that people came to faith, along with coming to faith through Paul’s preaching. Otherwise, Paul would have sent him home like he did John Mark (Acts 15:37–39). “You go home; you’re not ready, Demas.” And he never did that.

“A double life, lived contrary to the Christian conscience, is a shipwreck about to happen.”
But there came a time when Demas’s true colors were revealed — namely, what he really loved. It was not true spiritual reality, but only what this age was offering him through religious work: things like association with notable people, access to money, experiences of power, accolades for eloquence, commendations for courage. There are plenty of worldly pleasures to be had doing so-called “otherworldly work.” But Demas decided to stop playing the game, and he abandoned Paul.

Hymenaeus: Shipwrecked Blasphemer​

And then thirdly, there’s Hymenaeus. In 1 Timothy 1:18–20, Paul says to Timothy,

Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this [namely, faith with a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
They appeared to have faith. Well, what happened? They did not hold faith in a good conscience. What does that mean? It means that, over time, they began to do things for which their consciences condemned them. But instead of repenting, they found ways to dull their conscience, until their conscience was so seared that they could justify behaviors that were simply appalling, even to the point where Paul said they made “shipwreck of their faith.” A double life, lived contrary to the Christian conscience, is a shipwreck about to happen.

So, the lessons from Judas, Demas, and Hymenaeus are many. Here are three:

  1. Soul-saving, Christ-exalting truth may be spoken by hypocrites.
  2. Forsaking a good conscience is prelude to moral disaster.
  3. The amassing of money and the pursuit of lavish lifestyles in ministry are the alarm bells of the love of this age.

 

civic

Well-known member
continued:

Loose Truth and Untethered Sympathy​

Now let me make two observations about Ravi in particular.

First, Ravi’s way of publicly narrating his past personal experiences really troubled me. I always found him difficult to listen to for that very reason. His rhetorical style was very distinct in this regard. If you listen to any of his sermons, you’ll hear it. He would recall an encounter with someone, and then he would proceed to narrate the interchange with exact quotations: So-and-so said this. And then I said this. And then so-and-so responded with this.

And I don’t recall him cautioning the audience that, actually, these were approximations, at best, of his memory of what was said. I don’t like that kind of pretense of precision in remembered narration. It sounded careless to me at best, and dishonest at worst. At any rate, it really made me uncomfortable. And looking back, I can’t help but wonder if it was a symptom of looseness with truth about his experience.

Here’s a second observation, and it’s way more important than what I just said. There’s a lesson to be learned from Ravi’s manipulation of people — a lesson to be learned about the need for tethered sympathy. And what I mean is this: Every time sympathy is called for, it needs to be tethered to the truth, so that it is given lavishly when the truth calls for it, and is withheld when the truth clashes with it. And we usually think of this issue of tethered sympathy with regard to the victims of abuse who finally step forward at great risk and tell the truth. And at that moment, it can be very controversial to say that there should be tethered sympathy — sympathy that abounds and blesses and helps and heals, in accord with truth.

But it seems to me there is another lesson to be learned — namely, a lesson about the value of tethered sympathy — upstream from the crisis of revealed abuse, upstream from the point at which the abuse was happening. How did Ravi manipulate people into sinfully sending him nude pictures? How did he manipulate people into sinfully providing him with sexual stimulation? He did it by demanding untethered sympathy. He portrayed himself as an embattled, burdened, wounded warrior in the righteous cause of the gospel. And ironically, he turned his position of power into a form of neediness and woundedness, and then he tried to coerce untethered sympathy under the guise of calling for “kingdom therapy for the wounded warrior.”

“Don’t let the imperfections and failures of men turn you away from the perfections and the triumphs of Christ, who will never fail you.”
Now, I have seen this kind of manipulation, Tony. I have seen this kind of demand and manipulation for untethered sympathy repeatedly among fallen Christian leaders: “The burdens are so great. The wounds are so many. Those who understand me are so few. The weight of faithful ministry — oh, it is so great. I deserve some relief. Have some sympathy on this poor, wounded warrior. Empathize with your embattled hero. I need your body if I’m to carry on in the Lord’s work.” To which the administrative assistant or the old college flame or the teenage boy in the locker room should say, “That’s disgusting. Don’t ever talk to me like that again. My sympathy is not for sale; it’s tethered to truth and righteousness.”

Jesus Never Fails​

And I think the last thing I would say to those who came to Christ under Ravi’s ministry, or who had their faith mightily strengthened by what he taught, is this: Don’t let the imperfections and failures of men turn you away from the perfections and the triumphs of Christ, who will never, never fail you.

 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
The difficult thing to reconcile is the lifestyle over several years of sexual abuse and covering it up with lies and deceit. Scripture talks about the practicing of habitual sin in several places in Paul and Johns writings and those who do such things will not enter the kingdom of God. Believers are marked by a character of righteousness not sin. And he did this justifying those actions to those victims saying they were doing the work of God by allowing them to fulfill his sexual desires. Also he did not confess and repent of those sins but denied them until his death. He showed no remorse for what he did to all those victims.

1 John 2
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 3
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

hope this helps !!!
There is a big difference between a saved person who sins at times, maybe for a season, but will still confess that it is sin and repent, to one who justifies and covers their sinning up!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
So, how do you know if you finish in a good way?

I plan on finishing my life as a sinner saved by the grace of God.

“If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.” ― David Martyn Lloyd-Jones

When we hear Jesus tell us "well done, my good and faithful servant, kept the faith unto the end"
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
You have to consider OSAS.
Either he was saved or not.
There still remains only one unforgivable sin.

Too many people try to promote a salvation that is dependent on self, and not on the righteousness of Christ.

No one can condone any sin. I certainly cannot pick up the first stone.

Paul said the following:
15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

The devil will not lead someone to salvation, it is against his nature, he uses false teachings to delude many. Not sure if Ravi lead people away from Christ to a false christ.... perhaps if the allegations of rape is true, his victims?

It is set in stone for me that those who are held in the palm of the Lord will not be snatched away.
So either his preaching was just about his "image" and he was never saved, or he was saved and still is saved.
If he was really ever saved, is in heaven, but his lifestyle does not show any good fruit though to evidence that was true!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Was the lifestyle marked by the fruit of the spirit or the deeds of the flesh ?

Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit(AI) of the Spirit is love,joy, peace,forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.Against such things there is no law.24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit,let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Matthew 7
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’will enter the kingdom of heaven,(R)but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

hope this helps !!!
David and peter did gross sinning, but both repented and confessed and returned to the Lord, question is did he?
 

civic

Well-known member
There is a big difference between a saved person who sins at times, maybe for a season, but will still confess that it is sin and repent, to one who justifies and covers their sinning up!
Agree 100 %. Did you think I disagreed ?

BTW- I have not defended the man and his actions/lifestyle marked by sin.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
I agree with these scriptures. Your stance therefore is that he was never saved.

My question is whether any one person came to faith by listening to him preach. (I don't know)
If someone genuinely did, then God used even him, saved or not.
The Holy Spirit uses the scriptures, regardless of the source giving it forth!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Check this out from Piper


Three Ministers Who Fell Away​

Let me begin with some biblical background of gospel ministers, who, for a season, spoke the truth in useful ways, and then made shipwreck of their lives — indeed, their faith. I’m using these illustrations from the Bible, and I’m thinking here of Judas, Demas, and Hymenaeus — all of whom are explicitly named by Jesus and Paul.

Judas: Son of Perdition​

According to John 12:4–8, Judas was very critical of Mary’s anointing Jesus’s feet with an expensive perfume. And he said, “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” (John 12:5). And John comments, “He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it” (John 12:6).

In other words, for a long time — about three years, say — Judas was abusing the Lord’s trust by stealing what others had given to the ministry. And I assume that during all this time, he was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, that he was sent out two by two with others, that he worked miracles, that he enjoyed the most intimate conversations with the Son of God, Jesus Christ — all the while being a “son of perdition” (John 17:12 KJV).

Judas’s deception was so exceptional that none of the other twelve even suspected him of sedition and betrayal — because they were stunned at the Last Supper when Jesus said, “One of you will betray me” (Matthew 26:21). They didn’t all look at Judas and say, “Oh, of course, it’s Judas.” He was a master of deceit.

And what if, among the many people who were converted into followers of Jesus, some of them had been healed by Judas, and had responded to his preaching with faith in Jesus? His preaching was so orthodox, so apparently authentic, that no apostles were looking at him saying, “Well, Judas never gets it right.” They weren’t. He was getting it right. He was preaching the truth.

And lest anyone think that a phony apostle can’t do miracles, remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:22–23,


And those works of lawlessness would, of course, include things like pervasive deception; greedy, lavish use of ministry funds; harmful manipulation of other people for your own private pleasures; adulterous dalliances; continually making provision for the flesh against the explicit command of the apostle in Romans 13:13–14.

Demas: Infatuated with This Age​

And then there’s Demas. Twice we hear from Paul that he is a faithful partner in gospel work alongside Paul.

  • Colossians 4:14: “Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.” He greets you.
  • Philemon 23–24: “Epaphras . . . sends greetings to you, and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.” Demas is ranked as a fellow worker in the gospel alongside Luke, of all people.
And then, in his last letter, in 2 Timothy 4:10, come these horrible words: “Demas, in love with this present age, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica.” So, it appears that, for several years, Demas was a trusted gospel partner with Paul, just like Judas was with Jesus. And during that time, there’s no reason to think that he didn’t preach the gospel truly and that people came to faith, along with coming to faith through Paul’s preaching. Otherwise, Paul would have sent him home like he did John Mark (Acts 15:37–39). “You go home; you’re not ready, Demas.” And he never did that.


But there came a time when Demas’s true colors were revealed — namely, what he really loved. It was not true spiritual reality, but only what this age was offering him through religious work: things like association with notable people, access to money, experiences of power, accolades for eloquence, commendations for courage. There are plenty of worldly pleasures to be had doing so-called “otherworldly work.” But Demas decided to stop playing the game, and he abandoned Paul.

Hymenaeus: Shipwrecked Blasphemer​

And then thirdly, there’s Hymenaeus. In 1 Timothy 1:18–20, Paul says to Timothy,


They appeared to have faith. Well, what happened? They did not hold faith in a good conscience. What does that mean? It means that, over time, they began to do things for which their consciences condemned them. But instead of repenting, they found ways to dull their conscience, until their conscience was so seared that they could justify behaviors that were simply appalling, even to the point where Paul said they made “shipwreck of their faith.” A double life, lived contrary to the Christian conscience, is a shipwreck about to happen.

So, the lessons from Judas, Demas, and Hymenaeus are many. Here are three:

  1. Soul-saving, Christ-exalting truth may be spoken by hypocrites.
  2. Forsaking a good conscience is prelude to moral disaster.
  3. The amassing of money and the pursuit of lavish lifestyles in ministry are the alarm bells of the love of this age.

were any of therm even saved though, as Apostle John very clear some were among us, but were not really of us!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
continued:

Loose Truth and Untethered Sympathy​

Now let me make two observations about Ravi in particular.

First, Ravi’s way of publicly narrating his past personal experiences really troubled me. I always found him difficult to listen to for that very reason. His rhetorical style was very distinct in this regard. If you listen to any of his sermons, you’ll hear it. He would recall an encounter with someone, and then he would proceed to narrate the interchange with exact quotations: So-and-so said this. And then I said this. And then so-and-so responded with this.

And I don’t recall him cautioning the audience that, actually, these were approximations, at best, of his memory of what was said. I don’t like that kind of pretense of precision in remembered narration. It sounded careless to me at best, and dishonest at worst. At any rate, it really made me uncomfortable. And looking back, I can’t help but wonder if it was a symptom of looseness with truth about his experience.

Here’s a second observation, and it’s way more important than what I just said. There’s a lesson to be learned from Ravi’s manipulation of people — a lesson to be learned about the need for tethered sympathy. And what I mean is this: Every time sympathy is called for, it needs to be tethered to the truth, so that it is given lavishly when the truth calls for it, and is withheld when the truth clashes with it. And we usually think of this issue of tethered sympathy with regard to the victims of abuse who finally step forward at great risk and tell the truth. And at that moment, it can be very controversial to say that there should be tethered sympathy — sympathy that abounds and blesses and helps and heals, in accord with truth.

But it seems to me there is another lesson to be learned — namely, a lesson about the value of tethered sympathy — upstream from the crisis of revealed abuse, upstream from the point at which the abuse was happening. How did Ravi manipulate people into sinfully sending him nude pictures? How did he manipulate people into sinfully providing him with sexual stimulation? He did it by demanding untethered sympathy. He portrayed himself as an embattled, burdened, wounded warrior in the righteous cause of the gospel. And ironically, he turned his position of power into a form of neediness and woundedness, and then he tried to coerce untethered sympathy under the guise of calling for “kingdom therapy for the wounded warrior.”


Now, I have seen this kind of manipulation, Tony. I have seen this kind of demand and manipulation for untethered sympathy repeatedly among fallen Christian leaders: “The burdens are so great. The wounds are so many. Those who understand me are so few. The weight of faithful ministry — oh, it is so great. I deserve some relief. Have some sympathy on this poor, wounded warrior. Empathize with your embattled hero. I need your body if I’m to carry on in the Lord’s work.” To which the administrative assistant or the old college flame or the teenage boy in the locker room should say, “That’s disgusting. Don’t ever talk to me like that again. My sympathy is not for sale; it’s tethered to truth and righteousness.”

Jesus Never Fails​

And I think the last thing I would say to those who came to Christ under Ravi’s ministry, or who had their faith mightily strengthened by what he taught, is this: Don’t let the imperfections and failures of men turn you away from the perfections and the triumphs of Christ, who will never, never fail you.

His preaching and teaching seemed to be much more using philosophy and events then scriptures...
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Agree 100 %. Did you think I disagreed ?

BTW- I have not defended the man and his actions/lifestyle marked by sin.
no, was just suggesting that the big puzzel to all of this is if Ravi was rver really saved, and only the Lord knows that answer!
 

civic

Well-known member
no, was just suggesting that the big puzzel to all of this is if Ravi was rver really saved, and only the Lord knows that answer!
The answer is obvious if we believe Scripture. You will know them by their fruits. A good tree does not produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree good fruit. The character was not marked by the fruit of the spirit but by the deeds of the flesh. Lies, deceit, greed, loving money, lover of self, fornication, adulteries and a lifestyle marked by sin not righteousness.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Check this out from Piper


Three Ministers Who Fell Away​

Let me begin with some biblical background of gospel ministers, who, for a season, spoke the truth in useful ways, and then made shipwreck of their lives — indeed, their faith. I’m using these illustrations from the Bible, and I’m thinking here of Judas, Demas, and Hymenaeus — all of whom are explicitly named by Jesus and Paul.

Judas: Son of Perdition​

According to John 12:4–8, Judas was very critical of Mary’s anointing Jesus’s feet with an expensive perfume. And he said, “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” (John 12:5). And John comments, “He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it” (John 12:6).

In other words, for a long time — about three years, say — Judas was abusing the Lord’s trust by stealing what others had given to the ministry. And I assume that during all this time, he was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, that he was sent out two by two with others, that he worked miracles, that he enjoyed the most intimate conversations with the Son of God, Jesus Christ — all the while being a “son of perdition” (John 17:12 KJV).

Judas’s deception was so exceptional that none of the other twelve even suspected him of sedition and betrayal — because they were stunned at the Last Supper when Jesus said, “One of you will betray me” (Matthew 26:21). They didn’t all look at Judas and say, “Oh, of course, it’s Judas.” He was a master of deceit.

And what if, among the many people who were converted into followers of Jesus, some of them had been healed by Judas, and had responded to his preaching with faith in Jesus? His preaching was so orthodox, so apparently authentic, that no apostles were looking at him saying, “Well, Judas never gets it right.” They weren’t. He was getting it right. He was preaching the truth.

And lest anyone think that a phony apostle can’t do miracles, remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:22–23,


And those works of lawlessness would, of course, include things like pervasive deception; greedy, lavish use of ministry funds; harmful manipulation of other people for your own private pleasures; adulterous dalliances; continually making provision for the flesh against the explicit command of the apostle in Romans 13:13–14.

Demas: Infatuated with This Age​

And then there’s Demas. Twice we hear from Paul that he is a faithful partner in gospel work alongside Paul.

  • Colossians 4:14: “Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.” He greets you.
  • Philemon 23–24: “Epaphras . . . sends greetings to you, and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.” Demas is ranked as a fellow worker in the gospel alongside Luke, of all people.
And then, in his last letter, in 2 Timothy 4:10, come these horrible words: “Demas, in love with this present age, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica.” So, it appears that, for several years, Demas was a trusted gospel partner with Paul, just like Judas was with Jesus. And during that time, there’s no reason to think that he didn’t preach the gospel truly and that people came to faith, along with coming to faith through Paul’s preaching. Otherwise, Paul would have sent him home like he did John Mark (Acts 15:37–39). “You go home; you’re not ready, Demas.” And he never did that.


But there came a time when Demas’s true colors were revealed — namely, what he really loved. It was not true spiritual reality, but only what this age was offering him through religious work: things like association with notable people, access to money, experiences of power, accolades for eloquence, commendations for courage. There are plenty of worldly pleasures to be had doing so-called “otherworldly work.” But Demas decided to stop playing the game, and he abandoned Paul.

Hymenaeus: Shipwrecked Blasphemer​

And then thirdly, there’s Hymenaeus. In 1 Timothy 1:18–20, Paul says to Timothy,


They appeared to have faith. Well, what happened? They did not hold faith in a good conscience. What does that mean? It means that, over time, they began to do things for which their consciences condemned them. But instead of repenting, they found ways to dull their conscience, until their conscience was so seared that they could justify behaviors that were simply appalling, even to the point where Paul said they made “shipwreck of their faith.” A double life, lived contrary to the Christian conscience, is a shipwreck about to happen.

So, the lessons from Judas, Demas, and Hymenaeus are many. Here are three:

  1. Soul-saving, Christ-exalting truth may be spoken by hypocrites.
  2. Forsaking a good conscience is prelude to moral disaster.
  3. The amassing of money and the pursuit of lavish lifestyles in ministry are the alarm bells of the love of this age.

Thanks...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
The answer is obvious if we believe Scripture. You will know them by their fruits. A good tree does not produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree good fruit. The character was not marked by the fruit of the spirit but by the deeds of the flesh. Lies, deceit, greed, loving money, lover of self, fornication, adulteries and a lifestyle marked by sin not righteousness.
This is where I'm stuck at; I think he produced Good and Bad Fruit. I know the distinction is drawn though...
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
The answer is obvious if we believe Scripture. You will know them by their fruits. A good tree does not produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree good fruit. The character was not marked by the fruit of the spirit but by the deeds of the flesh. Lies, deceit, greed, loving money, lover of self, fornication, adulteries and a lifestyle marked by sin not righteousness.
Would agree that the fruit did deem to be really rotton!
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Please give me an example of the Gospel Ravi Zacharias preached, because I'm not aware he preached another gospel...
Here is one I just pulled from Youtube.


TBH, I don't listen to Ravi, and never really have. Only a handful of clips(which may be designed to make him look bad). The gospel presented above is concerning, especially the end.

I do hope that God saved him, but I dont know.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Thanks...

Demas: Infatuated with This Age​

And then there’s Demas. Twice we hear from Paul that he is a faithful partner in gospel work alongside Paul.


  • Colossians 4:14: “Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.” He greets you.
  • Philemon 23–24: “Epaphras . . . sends greetings to you, and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.” Demas is ranked as a fellow worker in the gospel alongside Luke, of all people.
And then, in his last letter, in 2 Timothy 4:10, come these horrible words: “Demas, in love with this present age, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica.” So, it appears that, for several years, Demas was a trusted gospel partner with Paul, just like Judas was with Jesus. And during that time, there’s no reason to think that he didn’t preach the gospel truly and that people came to faith, along with coming to faith through Paul’s preaching. Otherwise, Paul would have sent him home like he did John Mark (Acts 15:37–39). “You go home; you’re not ready, Demas.” And he never did that.


But there came a time when Demas’s true colors were revealed — namely, what he really loved. It was not true spiritual reality, but only what this age was offering him through religious work: things like association with notable people, access to money, experiences of power, accolades for eloquence, commendations for courage. There are plenty of worldly pleasures to be had doing so-called “otherworldly work.” But Demas decided to stop playing the game, and he abandoned Paul.

This answers it well...
 
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