Did Ravi Zacharias Persevere in the Faith or not?

eternomade

Well-known member
Many determinists want to have their "Lordship Salvation" cake but eat their "Salvation is of the Lord" cake as well. How to do? Well, just slap the label "reprobate" on anyone that just seems a little bit "too" sinful, and by gosh, they were never saved. So all the unconditionally saved can manifest certain conditions without being able to say they are truly necessary. Clever!
Well said.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
If salvation is truly NOT by works in any sense, why does any AMOUNT of sin matter?

As if "little" sins were somehow "okay" to God because we just can't help it... by this definition I'm pretty sure everyone practices sin and as soon as one has a besetting sin they can't overcome, it is making them feel like they can't be saved. What legalism.

The inconsistency of some theologies is truly baffling and can only be a blindness.

Many determinists want to have their "Lordship Salvation" cake but eat their "Salvation is of the Lord" cake as well. How to do? Well, just slap the label "reprobate" on anyone that just seems a little bit "too" sinful, and by gosh, they were never saved. So all the unconditionally saved can manifest certain conditions without being able to say they are truly necessary. Clever!

People don't fall away from God because their sin is too much, or too big for the Cross. It is because they allow the state of their heart to no longer receive freely offered grace into their lives, they are cut off from the vine. Truly no amount of sin is "too much" if grace is at work in them. We judge the tree the best we can externally, but no one can judge internally unless it's revealed.
You clearly don't understand 1 John 3:9...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I think the answer is found in asking did he practice sin?

1 John 3:9 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Practicing sin can be described and explained as "setting up shop" to sin. Or ones "practice, or business." If one is flying around the world and has this mistress, and that mistress, misspends funds, masseuse mistress here, and there, and purchases one a home (as a hush attempt?) that might just be setting up one's life and affairs to practice sin. Of course I am only basing this on things that had been reported about him.
Well said...
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
I think the answer is found in asking did he practice sin?

1 John 3:9 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Practicing sin can be described and explained as "setting up shop" to sin. Or ones "practice, or business." If one is flying around the world and has this mistress, and that mistress, misspends funds, masseuse mistress here, and there, and purchases one a home (as a hush attempt?) that might just be setting up one's life and affairs to practice sin. Of course I am only basing this on things that had been reported about him.
The worst aspect to me is that he appear to be totally unrepentant on his sinning, as david came clean once busted, as did peter!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
If salvation is truly NOT by works in any sense, why does any AMOUNT of sin matter?

As if "little" sins were somehow "okay" to God because we just can't help it... by this definition I'm pretty sure everyone practices sin and as soon as one has a besetting sin they can't overcome, it is making them feel like they can't be saved. What legalism.

The inconsistency of some theologies is truly baffling and can only be a blindness.

Many determinists want to have their "Lordship Salvation" cake but eat their "Salvation is of the Lord" cake as well. How to do? Well, just slap the label "reprobate" on anyone that just seems a little bit "too" sinful, and by gosh, they were never saved. So all the unconditionally saved can manifest certain conditions without being able to say they are truly necessary. Clever!

People don't fall away from God because their sin is too much, or too big for the Cross. It is because they allow the state of their heart to no longer receive freely offered grace into their lives, they are cut off from the vine. Truly no amount of sin is "too much" if grace is at work in them. We judge the tree the best we can externally, but no one can judge internally unless it's revealed.
Really saved cannot live like the Devil and show no evidence of changing at all!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Agreed I’ve never claimed such nonsense. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it NEVER be !
Some seem to state that "once saved always saved" produces those like a Ravi, I would state that not being really saved makes those!
 

civic

Well-known member
Some seem to state that "once saved always saved" produces those like a Ravi, I would state that not being really saved makes those!
Those who are truly born again will persevere in the faith until the end and finish the race .
 

civic

Well-known member
If salvation is truly NOT by works in any sense, why does any AMOUNT of sin matter?

As if "little" sins were somehow "okay" to God because we just can't help it... by this definition I'm pretty sure everyone practices sin and as soon as one has a besetting sin they can't overcome, it is making them feel like they can't be saved. What legalism.

The inconsistency of some theologies is truly baffling and can only be a blindness.

Many determinists want to have their "Lordship Salvation" cake but eat their "Salvation is of the Lord" cake as well. How to do? Well, just slap the label "reprobate" on anyone that just seems a little bit "too" sinful, and by gosh, they were never saved. So all the unconditionally saved can manifest certain conditions without being able to say they are truly necessary. Clever!

People don't fall away from God because their sin is too much, or too big for the Cross. It is because they allow the state of their heart to no longer receive freely offered grace into their lives, they are cut off from the vine. Truly no amount of sin is "too much" if grace is at work in them. We judge the tree the best we can externally, but no one can judge internally unless it's revealed.
Blindness ?

Jesus is Lord and one either submits to His Lordship or He is not their Lord. You will know them by their fruits ! A believer does not have a lifestyle marked by sin but righteousness.That is an oxymoron. Your system is the opposite. You can continue in sin that grace might abound which is the opposite of what scripture teaches.

Matthew 7:15-23
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.

1 John 3:6-10
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

I can add dozens of more passages that agree with the above and expose your erroneous view on sin and a lifestyle of sinning believer( an oxymoron)

hope this helps !!!
 
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Manfred

Well-known member
As Calvinists, what should we be preaching to the Church then?
That there are indeed weeds among the wheat.

It is inevitable, and those are the ones that will be pulled out and put in the fire.

I had a "friend" way back who confided in me once that he only believed about 10% of the time. And he was always at church and at prayer meetings and helpful. That made the weeds and wheat parable come alive for me.

Planted by the enemy.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
That there are indeed weeds among the wheat.

It is inevitable, and those are the ones that will be pulled out and put in the fire.

I had a "friend" way back who confided in me once that he only believed about 10% of the time. And he was always at church and at prayer meetings and helpful. That made the weeds and wheat parable come alive for me.

Planted by the enemy.
There are some Verses I'm glad are in the Bible, or I'd really be worried. "I Believe, help my Unbelief"...
 
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preacher4truth

Well-known member
Blindness ?

Jesus is Lord and one either submits to His Lordship or He is not their Lord. You will know them by their fruits ! A believer does not have a lifestyle marked by sin but righteousness.That is an oxymoron. Your system is the opposite. You can continue in sin that grace might abound which is the opposite of what scripture teaches.

Matthew 7:15-23
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.

1 John 3:6-10
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

I can add dozens of more passages that agree with the above and expose your erroneous view on sin and a lifestyle of sinning believer( an oxymoron)

hope this helps !!!
When @Dizerner said this; "If salvation is truly NOT by works in any sense, why does any AMOUNT of sin matter?" he shows he falls under the condemnation of Romans 3:8, no matter how long-winded his responses and attempted defense.

It also shows a lacking understanding of Romans 6; 1 John 3:9 and other Gospel truths that work sanctification in man.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Those who are truly born again will persevere in the faith until the end and finish the race .
Indeed, and also there is the truth that those who are saved and yet refuse to deal with sin issues might get taken home earlier then they expected!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
When @Dizerner said this; "If salvation is truly NOT by works in any sense, why does any AMOUNT of sin matter?" he shows he falls under the condemnation of Romans 3:8, no matter how long-winded his responses and attempted defense.

It also shows a lacking understanding of Romans 6; 1 John 3:9 and other Gospel truths that work sanctification in man.
Seems to be the problem Paul was dealing with in his time, as saved were telling him we should just lived more as sinners in order to haved grace of God abound more towards us!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Blindness ?

Jesus is Lord and one either submits to His Lordship or He is not their Lord. You will know them by their fruits ! A believer does not have a lifestyle marked by sin but righteousness.That is an oxymoron. Your system is the opposite. You can continue in sin that grace might abound which is the opposite of what scripture teaches.

Matthew 7:15-23
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.

1 John 3:6-10
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

I can add dozens of more passages that agree with the above and expose your erroneous view on sin and a lifestyle of sinning believer( an oxymoron)

hope this helps !!!
he might though be stating here that since salvation is secured by the Lord towards His own, then no amount of sinning well undo it?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
There are some who see "eternal security" as causing those holding to it having license to now sin, but they totally misunderstood grace!
Yes, but who? Hyper Calvinists?

Antimonianism was condemned by Paul in Romans 6.

6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
 
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