Did Ravi Zacharias Persevere in the Faith or not?

[Mike McK]

What do these passages mean ?

Neither one answer the questions I asked you. How would I know you died unrepentant? How would I know what you did in secret?

1 Cor 5
Your boasting is not good.(I) Don’t you know that a little yeast(J) leavens the whole batch of dough?(K) 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.(L) 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread(M) of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate(N)with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world(O) who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c](P) but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater(Q) or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.(R)

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside(S) the church? Are you not to judge those inside?(T) 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Paul was rebuking them for not practicing church discipline with a brother who was found to be in sin.

How would you suggest we go about practicing discipline with Ravi? You know he's dead, right?

 

[TibiasDad]

Was Ravi a Wolf in Sheep's clothing, and Jesus never knew him; or was he like Saint Paul and he did things he didn't want to do?

I need to know...

My heart aches over this situation; Ravi was my favorite author and speaker, and I was devastated at the revelation of his actions. I cannot accept this behavior, and do not endorse anyone engaging in it, but God is the judge of each man's heart, and while I fear for his soul, I hope that the thief on the cross has another companion to rejoice in the incomparable grace of God.

Doug

 

[ReverendRV]

No, he was no wolf. His doctrine was sound.

Why do you need to know?

I need to know for a few reasons; first, as you say his Doctrine was Sound. Why would God take away his Ministry from us because of what he did?

And another reason is because I like Ravi am the Chief of Sinners...

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus already told you. Weren't you listening?


16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Wasn't his Ministry Good Fruit?

 

[ReverendRV]

My heart aches over this situation; Ravi was my favorite author and speaker, and I was devastated at the revelation of his actions. I cannot accept this behavior, and do not endorse anyone engaging in it, but God is the judge of each man's heart, and while I fear for his soul, I hope that the thief on the cross has another companion to rejoice in the incomparable grace of God.

Doug

One reason I need to know is because if Ravi has always been a Wolf in Sheep's clothing, how did he understand Spiritual things as well as he did? Well, understand them on paper at least...

 

[Mike McK]

I need to know for a few reasons

Such as...?

; first, as you say his Doctrine was Sound. Why would God take away his Ministry from us because of what he did?

Are you saying God killed him like Annanias and Saphira?

 

[ReverendRV]

I agree with you, but there are two different issues at play.

The question was about Ravi's doctrine, which we not only can judge, but should judge.

But now, because of information that's come out after his death, I think that's where we get into foul territory with the judging.

We know that the things he's accused of are sins and wrong. But we don't know what happened, whether Ravi actually did these things, or what the circumstances were (and that only makes a marginal difference, anyway).

Ravi, being a minister of the Gospel, is held to a higher standard, but because he died before he could defend himself, before church discipline could be carried out, and, most importantly, before he had the opportunity of restoration, I think it's best that we just leave this one to God and trust that, either way, God will judge him justly.

Agreed. It's hard for me to judge, knowing my own sins.

This is another reason I need to know; do we throw the baby out with the bath water? It feels like the Cancel Culture of the Church. I can understand why the world will throw out his Ministry, and I understand why the Church would want to; but do we have to?

Should his books burn in Hell too?

 

[Mike McK]

This is another reason I need to know

Still waiting.

do we throw the baby out with the bath water? It feels like the Cancel Culture of the Church. I can understand why the world will throw out his Ministry, and I understand why the Church would want to; but do we have to?

The accusations against Ravi may make it harder for his work to have credibility, but truth doesn't suddenly become untrue just because the person who said it sins.

Should his books burn in Hell too?

No, we leave book burning to the Democrats.

 

[ReverendRV]

I’m asking about me

I think we all agree that those who left us were never of us. In your scenario, did you leave us? IE to the extent that Peter did when the rooster crowed? Since Ravi had a habit of Sin, how long before he died had he left us?

 

[ReverendRV]

I think we'd all admit there is a slight chance Ravi repented on his death bed. I can't describe how I wish it were true, he felt like a father to me.

But since we have no open record of his repentance we have good reason to assume (without absolute knowledge) his fate.

We need to take this seriously. It's another reason I need to know...

 

[ReverendRV]

Such as...?

Are you saying God killed him like Annanias and Saphira?

One thing that's rolling around in the back of my head is that all of this convicts me. Could God have used the Great/not so Great Ravi Zacharias to get through to Me? I have Antinomian tendencies...

 

[Mike McK]

One thing that's rolling around in the back of my head is that all of this convicts me. Could God have used the Great/not so Great Ravi Zacharias to get through to Me? I have Antinomian tendencies...

Maybe. God uses all sorts of things to get through to non-Christians.

 

[ReverendRV]

Maybe. God uses all sorts of things to get through to non-Christians.

And to get through to Christians; or else places like CARM wouldn't exist. I'm a Christian...

 

[Mike McK]

I'm a Christian...

You just said you have antinomian tendencies.

 

[ReverendRV]

Maybe. God uses all sorts of things to get through to non-Christians.

Easy Believism ~ by ReverendRV​

Romans 10:9 KJV; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The Protestant Reformation was built largely upon the premise we are Saved through ‘Faith Alone’. ~ Recently a Celebrity has pronounced his Christianity, claiming “Jesus is King”. Christians are concerned that the Star will let us down as other Stars have in the past, saying “Let’s wait and see”; but should we wait?? Some Churches take issue with Easy Believism, but it takes very little for us to be considered a Christian. Thank God that this is true because our Justification in the sight of God could never be real any other way! May God bless Kanye West and use him for the increase of his Kingdom, and his Honor and Glory. The World will want to break Kanye; but when God is involved, a bruised reed he will not break…

I wanted to show that ‘Easy Believism’ and ‘Easy Condemnation’ have a certain Equilibrium; sort of an Equal Ultimacy. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? You say, “That’s easy, yes I have”. What do you call people who Lie? You say, “That’s easy too, they are Liars”. What does all this make you out to be? You say, “It doesn’t make ME a Liar”. But wouldn’t their being Liars, also make you a Liar because of a kind of Equal Ultimacy; a ‘unifying’ Category so to speak? As it takes little to be Saved from the Penalty of your Sins, there’s an Equilibrium between easy Innocence and easy Guiltiness; all it takes is a Lie to be Guilty. But it’s worse than that; “The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the Adulterous, those who practice magic arts, the Idolaters and all Liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone”. If God Judged you by this standard would you be Guilty? Would you go to this fiery Hell??

But God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever ‘believes’ in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life; how easy is that?! For all have Sinned and Fallen short of the Glory of God, but the gift of God is Eternal Life in Jesus Christ. He lived a Sinless Life and earned a Righteousness which allowed him a Triumphal Entry into Heaven, but he gladly traded his triumph for our shame. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for Lying to God by shedding his blood on the Cross, Atoning for Sin. Jesus arose from the grave conquering Death and Hell, then ascended to Heaven where he prepares a place for us to be with him. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the risen Jesus Christ, without trying to Merit Salvation in any other conceivable way. Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God, Repent of your Sins; and join a Bible believing Church as soon as you can. ~ Since Jesus bore your Sin, you bear his Righteousness; and are Forgiven. “Equal Ultimacy” is used to debate higher Doctrines; but when someone is categorized as a Sinner, ultimately you are too. When Jesus is Righteous and you are in him; ultimately you are too…

John 18:37 KJV; Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

 

[ReverendRV]

You just said you have antinomian tendencies.

I do...

 

[PeanutGallery]

Why are you changing the subject...you brought up 'flavors', yet you cant' tell me which one you're talking about.

Actually, you brought up:

...
There's a difference between choosing evil and allowing it.

To that I mentioned flavours, since it is your theology which stated 'decree' or 'ordain' not 'allowing it'; thus, the flavours.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; ...


Chapter III - Of God’s Eternal Decree. i. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: ...

 

[ReverendRV]

I think there was good fruit, but I would interpret the passage not to mean the fruit of ministry, but the personal fruit of the Spirit.

Mike Winger made a great point on his video about it (search Youtube it's worth watching). Basically, there were people healed/saved/delivered by the ministry of Judas, and how would they feel once he fell away? Was his message wrong? Was what happened through him invalid? No, of course not. Look at King Solomon, the wisest man on earth writing a book of wisdom, yet still ending in the most foolish way possible. It doesn't negate the wisdom he once proclaimed; he didn't live or listen to his own message. Or look at Samson, a godless man who still did something that was used by God despite his sinful state. The wisdom and eloquence with which Ravi sometimes spoke was absolutely profound, even if he, himself did not abide by his own message. Still as a statement of rejection for his lifestyle I did remove his ministry materials.

At the end of the day, the Bible says follow our Conscience; eat food offered to an Idol, or don't. That's why I feel like I could still use his Ministry. Ravi is named in one of my Gospel Tracts, should I strike his name from it, but continue to use his lesson?

 

[ReverendRV]

Yea, I think that's a Romans 14 issue. The way I look at it is this—it doesn't bother me, but it might offend someone else. I can see past the issue, but someone else might have a weak conscience. I think we should do it for the other people's sake, even when we realize it's not the real issue.

One of the things I wanted to address on the Thread is the possibility that there could be a "Cancel Culture" amongst Christians regarding the Fall of Ravi Zacharias. How do we not Cancel his Ministry when we Cancel him?

 

[guest1]

I think we all agree that those who left us were never of us. In your scenario, did you leave us? IE to the extent that Peter did when the rooster crowed? Since Ravi had a habit of Sin, how long before he died had he left us?

his secret life says he never was of us since practicing sin is proof one is a child of the devil according to John's epistle. Paul says the same thing in his writings that those who practice such things( adultery, fornication, sexual sins) shall not enter the kingdom of God.