Did Ravi Zacharias Persevere in the Faith or not?

[4Him]

Well the family doesn’t believe he did either nor those closest to him in the ministry.

They don't know what conversations he may have had with God regarding his actions. Has his family condemned him to hell? If so, they are just as wrong as you are. It's easy to speak ill of the dead who can't defend themselves.
I read the statement from the ministry and it says nothing about whether they believed he repented or not.

 

[guest1]

They don't know what conversations he may have had with God regarding his actions. Has his family condemned him to hell? If so, they are just as wrong as you are. It's easy to speak ill of the dead who can't defend themselves.

And there is no evidence that he did and his lifestyle was the same in the last few months of his life as his phone records prove.

You and I can go round and round in this but neither one of us will change the others mind. There are many respected ministers, pastors and scholars who also hold to my view on the situation. But only God knows and we will find out one day soon.

FYI- I honestly hope he did repent but I’m very skeptical.

 

[4Him]

And there is no evidence that he did and his lifestyle was the same in the last few months of his life as his phone records prove.

You and I can go round and round in this but neither one of us will change the others mind. There are many respected ministers, pastors and scholars who also hold to my view on the situation. But only God knows and we will find out one day soon.

FYI- I honestly hope he did repent but I’m very skeptical.

I'm not trying to change your mind about anything....I'm saying you, I, nor anyone else knows if this man repented on his deathbed.

 

[guest1]

I'm not trying to change your mind about anything....I'm saying you, I, nor anyone else knows if this man repented on his deathbed.

That is true but it’s highly doubtful when the evidence of his life is examined.

Thanking the women you have raped and praising God afterwards thanking them for doing the Lords will is the mind of a reprobate , a charlatan, an apostate .

 

[4Him]

That is true but it’s highly doubtful when the evidence of his life is examined.

Thanking the women you have raped and praising God afterwards thanking them for doing the Lords will is the mind of a reprobate , a charlatan, an apostate .

And AGAIN.....you have no idea if this man repented of his actions.

 

[guest1]

And AGAIN.....you have no idea if this man repented of his actions.

Do you have any examples in scripture where any apostates repent ?

 

[4Him]

Do you have any examples in scripture where any apostates repent ?

Wow....that you even ask so foolish a question is astonishing. God can grant repentance to ANYONE at ANYTIME.

That you are hellbent on trying to prove this man was an unrepentant apostate rather than pray that he did says WAY more about you than you realize....

 

[guest1]

Wow....that you even ask so foolish a question is astonishing. God can grant repentance to ANYONE at ANYTIME.

That you are hellbent on trying to prove this man was an unrepentant apostate rather than pray that he did says WAY more about you than you realize....

It’s to late for prayer as he will reap what he sowed .

It’s obvious we are not in agreement on the topic.

Scripture is black and white about those who practice sin( habitually ) will not enter the kingdom of God. It reveals an unrepentant lifestyle practiced over numerous years of continual sin, rape, sexual fornication, deception , lies and causing “ little ones to stumble” hence Jesus warning about the millstone.

hope this helps !!!

PS- you can have the last word.

 

[4Him]

It’s to late for prayer as he will reap what he sowed .

I didn't say pray for his soul, I said I pray he repented.

It’s obvious we are not in agreement on the topic.

Thankfully.

Scripture is black and white about those who practice sin( habitually ) will not enter the kingdom of God. It reveals an unrepentant lifestyle practiced over numerous years of continual sin, rape, sexual fornication, deception , lies and causing “ little ones to stumble” hence Jesus warning about the millstone.

hope this helps !!!

PS- you can have the last word.

Scripture is black and white about those that are repentant, even up to death. We don't know whether he did or not.

I pray for his family and victims and I also pray he did repent, you, however, are free to assume he didn't and died an unrepentant apostate.

 

[TibiasDad]

Just as 4Him and I have stated there is no Calvinism Confession. I'm well aware that the poster may have meant the contents of the Westminster/London Baptist.

Though I hold to the LBC1689, I have NEVER raised it to a level beyond scripture.

If you are here to say you think I'm disingenuous as in a personal attack, you should reconsider if you think that kind of divisive rhetoric is helpful. You know, more light than heat.

But if you are really going to criticize me, let me ask you to apply that same criticism to the person who could not take the time to say what he meant with a modicum of accuracy. He had many opportunities to do that.

1 Peter 3:15

English Standard Version

15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Ephesians 4:29

English Standard Version

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

This was neither a personal attack, nor an attempt at decisiveness; PG, quoting the WCF, may not be technically correct using the term "Calvinism Confession", for Calvinism is a theological perspective, not a denominational statement of faith and theological understanding. But it is, pragmatically, a Calvinistic expression of what they confess as true and why they believed as they do.

I don't know how my words are considered to be not gentle. I merely asked a question and made a statement expressing something similar to what I've stated above. It is my observation and conclusion that you are side stepping the argument and evidence that PG presented by diverting to his, perhaps, poor choice of wording. If thinking that assessing one of being "disingenuous" is being harsh or not gentle then no one here can be considered gentle, for much harsher verbiage is used by those on both sides of the argument here. Any negative accusations would be considered less than "gentle", and "wokeness" will have gained another victory over honest and straightforward language.

Doug

 

[Beloved Daughter]

This was neither a personal attack, nor an attempt at decisiveness; PG, quoting the WCF, may not be technically correct using the term "Calvinism Confession", for Calvinism is a theological perspective, not a denominational statement of faith and theological understanding. But it is, pragmatically, a Calvinistic expression of what they confess as true and why they believed as they do.

I don't know how my words are considered to be not gentle. I merely asked a question and made a statement expressing something similar to what I've stated above. It is my observation and conclusion that you are side stepping the argument and evidence that PG presented by diverting to his, perhaps, poor choice of wording. If thinking that assessing one of being "disingenuous" is being harsh or not gentle then no one here can be considered gentle, for much harsher verbiage is used by those on both sides of the argument here. Any negative accusations would be considered less than "gentle", and "wokeness" will have gained another victory over honest and straightforward language.

Doug

Save your conclusions for the person who introduced it. If he had wanted to make a point, he would have properly identified the material he was speaking of.

You are projecting once again. Take your 'wokeness' criticism to where it applies. I have nothing to do with that particularly egregious movement. Nor will I ever.

I'm not going to be available for you to keep imposing evil things upon me.

If you need to get the last word in, go for it.

 

[ReverendRV]

My money is on Ravi saved even if still sinful.

All saved are saved yet still sinful. The bigger they come the more the devil will aim to take em down. And Ravi was big enough one I guess.

Not sure how anyone would reckon him damned on the immorality card. Sure, we're all immoral and the extent of our culpability has to do with the extent to which we could be tempted.

His biggest error is probably less the immorality and more giving into the pride which would lead him to forget he needed to rely on the Lord and not his clear intellect. He strayed unto dangerous territory, didn't cop that he was doing so, ignored the warning signs that would have been there. And off the edge of a cliff into sin he went.

Pretty much the same story for any Christian who sins.

As a Calvinist, I tend to agree with you. Not only does Unconditional Election say we're Chosen before anything Good we can do to deserve it, but we're also Chosen before we do anything Bad to not deserve it. If Ravi was ever Chosen by God, he was Chosen without consideration if he'd Persevere or not...

Is that Hyper? Or is that Calvinism?

 

[ReverendRV]

My heart breaks for the whole situation. I hurt for those who have suffered at the hands of Ravi. I hurt for those who were previously blessed by his ministry, but now they are struggling with how to see his life and works. I hurt for the books he has written, for his testimony will devalue the truth of them. I hurt for his family members who have faced and will continue to face social difficulty and pain. My heart breaks for the countless lives touched by his ministry and the damage that this information brings to countless people as they are forced to reevaluate his life. I hurt for the body of Christ as it has to wade through difficult questions. I hope that we can see those who are hurting and seek to comfort them, for this situation is much more than just debate fodder.

I confess that I have too little knowledge; I cannot evaluate the situation well enough to answer your questions. God certainly does know, and I am content to leave the difficult questions over Ravi's life in His almighty, all-knowing hands. As He has said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay." Both the cross and hell stand as a testament of God's justice.

Thanks, I agree. I do think there is a lot to learn from here though. We need to learn how important it is to Persevere; and as to how a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing could have EVER Discerned Spiritual things to the point that Ravi did...

 

[ReverendRV]

Do you have any examples in scripture where any apostates repent ?

The closest example of that is Saint Peter, when he disowned Jesus three times; but Apostate might not be the right word to describe him, or maybe it technically is. Peter did what it takes to Apostasize according to Hebrews 6:4; but Peter Repented when Jesus came to him...

This is the day the LORD has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it; at Church today for the first time in a year...

 

[York]

An opinion without scripture is meaningless . I posted several passages showing those who practice sexual sins will not enter the kingdom of God and John refers to such ones as children of the devil and Paul and the other Apostles call such ones apostates. Jesus calls them wolves in sheep’s clothing and false teachers.

hope this helps !!!

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone? I tell you the truth, if you so much as look lustfully at woman you have committed adultery with her in your heart? A pair of intertwined verses as it happens. You ever looked at a woman lustfully, post salvation?

At some point you have to decide that the apparent "scale" of the sin represents moving beyond a threshold. A threshold of sin before which you are not damned. Or beyond which you are damned / never were a Christian in the first place.

Quite how you figure to establish that scale is beyond me. But I'm open to your suggestions.

 

[York]

That is true but it’s highly doubtful when the evidence of his life is examined.

Thanking the women you have raped and praising God afterwards thanking them for doing the Lords will is the mind of a reprobate , a charlatan, an apostate .

Could you point to scripture that says that post-salvation we will stop sinning? Or failing that, point to a scripture which suggests some or other limit on the extent of our sinning post salvation?

Bear in mind, there is no uniform standard for sin: someone who sins on an apparently (i.e. in our eyes) lesser level than another could well be held to higher account. We would have to know the extent to which someone was predisposed by external circumstances to sin as they did. It's called extenuating circumstances in the courts. Apparently great sin but with greater extenuating circumstance vs. apparently lesser sin but with less extenuating circumstance would end up being equal level of guilt.

 

[York]

As a Calvinist, I tend to agree with you. Not only does Unconditional Election say we're Chosen before anything Good we can do to deserve it, but we're also Chosen before we do anything Bad to not deserve it. If Ravi was ever Chosen by God, he was Chosen without consideration if he'd Persevere or not...

Is that Hyper? Or is that Calvinism?

I'm not a Calvinist in that I don't think God choses us irrespective of our input to the matter. That said, I don't believe you can lose a salvation once saved.

But my objection here merely revolves around someone sinning. As if the saved don't sin??

So where is the threshold for sin that either loses you your salvation (or indicates you never where a Christian)? That's what the condemnation of Ravi lacks. It assumes something without showing how that position was arrived at.

So let folk show: Ravi sinned. And??

 

[guest1]

The closest example of that is Saint Peter, when he disowned Jesus three times; but Apostate might not be the right word to describe him, or maybe it technically is. Peter did what it takes to Apostasize according to Hebrews 6:4; but Peter Repented when Jesus came to him...

This is the day the LORD has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it; at Church today for the first time in a year...

Yes but that was pre Pentecost prior to him being transformed by the Spirit when he became a fearless preacher.

 

[guest1]

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone? I tell you the truth, if you so much as look lustfully at woman you have committed adultery with her in your heart? A pair of intertwined verses as it happens. You ever looked at a woman lustfully, post salvation?

At some point you have to decide that the apparent "scale" of the sin represents moving beyond a threshold. A threshold of sin before which you are not damned. Or beyond which you are damned / never were a Christian in the first place.

Quite how you figure to establish that scale is beyond me. But I'm open to your suggestions.

You need to deal with those passages rather than ignoring them. And God commands us as per 1 Cor 6 to judge those in the church and remove the wicked one from your midst and God judges those outside the church.

hope this helps !!!

 

[guest1]

Could you point to scripture that says that post-salvation we will stop sinning? Or failing that, point to a scripture which suggests some or other limit on the extent of our sinning post salvation?

Bear in mind, there is no uniform standard for sin: someone who sins on an apparently (i.e. in our eyes) lesser level than another could well be held to higher account. We would have to know the extent to which someone was predisposed by external circumstances to sin as they did. It's called extenuating circumstances in the courts. Apparently great sin but with greater extenuating circumstance vs. apparently lesser sin but with less extenuating circumstance would end up being equal level of guilt.

I can point as I have through several of the Apostles and Jesus teaching that those who practice sin( habitually ) like Ravi SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God as per Gal 5 , 1 Cor 6, sermon on the mount snd 1 John.

hope this helps !!!