Did Ravi Zacharias Persevere in the Faith or not?

[guest1]

Thanks, I agree. I do think there is a lot to learn from here though. We need to learn how important it is to Persevere; and as to how a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing could have EVER Discerned Spiritual things to the point that Ravi did...

Think of judas as he was one of the 12 and performed miracles and spread the “ good news “ about the messiah as the rest did over 3 years but his heart was wicked just like Ravi’s as demonstrated by his deeds .

 

[York]

I can point as I have through several of the Apostles and Jesus teaching that those who practice sin( habitually ) like Ravi SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God as per Gal 5 , 1 Cor 6, sermon on the mount snd 1 John.

hope this helps !!!

Define habitually. Once, twice, thrice?

 

[York]

You need to deal with those passages rather than ignoring them. And God commands us as per 1 Cor 6 to judge those in the church and remove the wicked one from your midst and God judges those outside the church.

hope this helps !!!

Again, a definition would be helpful both of the sin that is to be judged (I take it you consider adultery to occur on a scale) and the frequency of it.

Which part of 1 Cor 6 deals with this?

 

[York]

I did make an attempt to describe where and how that threshold works, to be fair.

Believing you can sin to certain extreme amount and never lose salvation is more OSAS/Free grace, than Calvinism, Calvinism pulls the you were never saved card as a kind of safeguard, insisting the elect must bear fruit.

Wikipedia describes Free grace theology thusly:

Free Grace advocates believe that good works are not the condition to merit (as with Catholics), maintain (as with Arminians), or to prove (as with Calvinists) eternal life, but rather are part of discipleship and the basis for receiving eternal rewards.​

I rather like this distinction, as I would describe refraining from committing unpardonable sins as not meriting nor as proving a deterministic election, but rather maintaining the necessary grace already given us.

Of course I would argue the warnings in the Bible are not just decorative nor the means of determinitive grace, but actual real warnings one can take heed to or ignore, and this is the most natural way to read them.

Since the only unpardonable sin is refusing to believe the truth and so be saved, I'm not sure what relevance it has to the saved.

Once you introduce a(n unknown) threshold unto losing your salvation, you're into never knowing whether you will finally be saved or not. For want of knowing what the threshold is and on which side you fall. Which side steps all the assurance verses we have been given.

You're straight into a works based salvation: folk trying their best not to fall on the wrong side of the threshold..

 

[ReverendRV]

I went to Church for the first time in a while, asked for Forgiveness; and Worshipped. Praise the Lord...

 

[ReverendRV]

Since the only unpardonable sin is refusing to believe the truth and so be saved, I'm not sure what relevance it has to the saved.

Once you introduce a(n unknown) threshold unto losing your salvation, you're into never knowing whether you will finally be saved or not. For want of knowing what the threshold is and on which side you fall. Which side steps all the assurance verses we have been given.

You're straight into a works based salvation: folk trying their best not to fall on the wrong side of the threshold..

So you are probably the right person to talk to about Antinomianism. How do you avoid it?

 

[guest1]

Define habitually. Once, twice, thrice?

Ravi decades how about that for a habitual sin?

 

[guest1]

Again, a definition would be helpful both of the sin that is to be judged (I take it you consider adultery to occur on a scale) and the frequency of it.

Which part of 1 Cor 6 deals with this?

1 Cor 5
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[

1 Cor 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were.But you were washed, you were sanctified,you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[guest1]

Since the only unpardonable sin is refusing to believe the truth and so be saved, I'm not sure what relevance it has to the saved.

Once you introduce a(n unknown) threshold unto losing your salvation, you're into never knowing whether you will finally be saved or not. For want of knowing what the threshold is and on which side you fall. Which side steps all the assurance verses we have been given.

You're straight into a works based salvation: folk trying their best not to fall on the wrong side of the threshold..

Except we are commanded to obey Christ not use Him for sordid gain, seduction, lying, deception , sexual pleasures etc....

We are to FLEE from immortality not pursue it. And that is not works but obedience and faithfulness to Christ while putting the interest / benefit of others above self. Christ told us to deny ourselves , take up your cross daily ( ready to die for Him) and follow Him not self gratification.

Scripture is black and white on this not grey.

hope this helps !!!

 

[York]

I went to Church for the first time in a while, asked for Forgiveness; and Worshipped. Praise the Lord...

Congrats. Haven't been to church in a while myself. It came to be as dull as ditchwater. The tendency there is to preach the theology of the leader(s) ( and how to live your life in light of the theology). But with little questioning as to whether the theology stacks up.

 

[York]

So you are probably the right person to talk to about Antinomianism. How do you avoid it?

What, the view that my sin doesn't matter since I'm saved anyway? A 007-esque Licence to Seek Thrills?

You avoid it by understanding what you are in Christ. And if you don't you will suffer from the discipline of God.

The way I see it? This life is short and my standing in heaven eternal. I don't know exactly how that standing is reckoned but figure that the closer I want to get to God, the closer I can get to God. And that there is various reward-levels in heaven.

Doesn't seem like a good investment to sin as I like now, and rob from myself forever.

Besides, there is trouble for everyone who does evil. Since I know the trouble sin got me into - aiding and abetting my turning to God in the first place, there is prior experience to deflect me from the idea that just because I am saved, sin goes unnoticed by God.

By no means. Do you not know..?

I do know and so I've a motivation and a reason not to sin as I please.

 

[York]

Except we are commanded to obey Christ not use Him for sordid gain, seduction, lying, deception , sexual pleasures etc....

We are to FLEE from immortality not pursue it. And that is not works but obedience and faithfulness to Christ while putting the interest / benefit of others above self. Christ told us to deny ourselves , take up your cross daily ( ready to die for Him) and follow Him not self gratification.

Scripture is black and white on this not grey.

hope this helps !!!

But there is no "or else" attaching. Exhorting someone to be holy can be done on any number of bases. Paul's basis seems to be an appeal to reason: do you not know who you are. Do you not know what Christ is doing and has done?

But there doesn't seem to be a guarantee that the exhortation will be followed to the letter. There is slippage and what you are simply doing is drawing a line in the sand and suggesting that your sexual slippage (assuming you have any and it's more than a one off) is somehow different to Ravi's sexual slippage.

You can't know the level of attack he was under vs. you. Perhaps your sexual slippage exceeds his, given the relative pressures applied to both.

How do you judge (bearing in mind you are told not to judge)?

 

[ReverendRV]

Congrats. Haven't been to church in a while myself. It came to be as dull as ditchwater. The tendency there is to preach the theology of the leader(s) ( and how to live your life in light of the theology). But with little questioning as to whether the theology stacks up.

It was quite the blessing. I know what you mean, I have several issues with my Inlaw's hand-picked Church for my daughter; but I went anyway. The topic was timely; God's "little providences"...

When you're starving and thirsting, Baloney and Kool-aide are like Steak and Sweet Tea...

For me, a Pandemic made a great excuse to avoid God...

 

[guest1]

But there is no "or else" attaching. Exhorting someone to be holy can be done on any number of bases. Paul's basis seems to be an appeal to reason: do you not know who you are. Do you not know what Christ is doing and has done?

But there doesn't seem to be a guarantee that the exhortation will be followed to the letter. There is slippage and what you are simply doing is drawing a line in the sand and suggesting that your sexual slippage (assuming you have any and it's more than a one off) is somehow different to Ravi's sexual slippage.

You can't know the level of attack he was under vs. you. Perhaps your sexual slippage exceeds his, given the relative pressures applied to both.

How do you judge (bearing in mind you are told not to judge)?

Read 1 Cor chapters 5-6 snd get back to me as we are told to judge those in the church.

next....

 

[guest1]

What, the view that my sin doesn't matter since I'm saved anyway? A 007-esque Licence to Seek Thrills?

You avoid it by understanding what you are in Christ. And if you don't you will suffer from the discipline of God.

The way I see it? This life is short and my standing in heaven eternal. I don't know exactly how that standing is reckoned but figure that the closer I want to get to God, the closer I can get to God. And that there is various reward-levels in heaven.

Doesn't seem like a good investment to sin as I like now, and rob from myself forever.

Besides, there is trouble for everyone who does evil. Since I know the trouble sin got me into - aiding and abetting my turning to God in the first place, there is prior experience to deflect me from the idea that just because I am saved, sin goes unnoticed by God.

By no means. Do you not know..?

I do know and so I've a motivation and a reason not to sin as I please.

Loos like Ravi had no clue what in Christ meant since hi willfully sinned like a child of the devil for years and years with no repentance .

How do I know ?

He never made things right with his many victims .

 

[4Him]

Loos like Ravi had no clue what in Christ meant since hi willfully sinned like a child of the devil for years and years with no repentance .

How do I know ?

He never made things right with his many victims .

Did Saul make things right with every one of the victims he persecuted before his conversion?

 

[4Him]

Read 1 Cor chapters 5-6 snd get back to me as we are told to judge those in the church.

next....

You are to judge the living, not the dead...that's not your job.

 

[guest1]

Did Saul make things right with every one of the victims he persecuted before his conversion?

He wasn’t a Christian

 

[TibiasDad]

But my objection here merely revolves around someone sinning. As if the saved don't sin??

Nobody says that a Christian cannot or doesn't sin. The question is can one who maintains a pattern of unrepented sinful behavior while claiming and appearing to be a mature and outspoken Christian truly be a believer at the point of death!

The Bible makes it clear that believers have been set free from sin (Rom 6:18), and are free to choose to not sin by following the Spirit, and thereby receive eternal life, or choose to follow the sinful nature and commit the lusts of the flesh which results in death! (Rom 8:12-13). John furthermore says, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him" (1Jn 3:6), and says he wrote the letter "so that you will not sin" (1Jn 2:1).


Doug

 

[guest1]

Nobody says that a Christian cannot or doesn't sin. The question is can one who maintains a pattern of unrepented sinful behavior while claiming and appearing to be a mature and outspoken Christian truly be a believer at the point of death!

The Bible makes it clear that believers have been set free from sin (Rom 6:18), and are free to choose to not sin by following the Spirit, and thereby receive eternal life, or choose to follow the sinful nature and commit the lusts of the flesh which results in death! (Rom 8:12-13). John furthermore says, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him" (1Jn 3:6), and says he wrote the letter "so that you will not sin" (1Jn 2:1).


Doug

Spot on Doug !