Did St Paul Change His Name?

SteveB

Well-known member
I will take that as a yes.


You are not telling me otherwise.


Did Paul change his name from Saul?

No. You clearly know that, which is why we get these oh-so-carefully words phrases that kind of seem to say Paul changed his name, without actually coming out and saying it.
🤔😳🙄🤣🤣

He is dead, Steve. He has been for nearly 2000 years.
And yet here you are arguing about this issue, as though he can be inquired about it.


I have a novel idea though.
You admit you were wrong.
Or, if you still think Paul changed his name from Saul, say it clearly and unambiguously.

Can you commit one way or the other? All you are doing at the moment is proving how little faith you have in your own beliefs.
You're losing your mind here Pixie.
The man's name is Paul. It was Saul.

Since he's been with Jesus since the mid sixties of the first century, this entire thread is a good example of how twisted your need to argue is.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
And if you'd actually done anything, just to make sure that your ego's place on this forum was secure, you'd have taken copious steps to make sure that you detailed your practice and experience, so you could prove me the a88hole you're convinced I am.
Unsupported, false.

If you actually had a method, just to make sure that your ego's place on this forum was secure, you'd have taken copious steps to make sure that you detailed your method, so you could prove all of us atheists the a88holes you're convinced we are.

And yet... I see nothing.
The crickets have been given the go ahead to play their nightly orchestra for years now.
And yet... we see nothing.
The crickets have been given the go ahead to play their nightly orchestra for years now.

Further evidence that you haven't actually done anything.
Why do you do this to yourself?
Prove me wrong.
Detail your experiences.
Further evidence that you don't actually have a method.

Why do you do this to yourself?

Prove me wrong.

Detail your 'method'.

I never said that it was.
You constantly say it is.

You're failing miserably in your failures to detail your experiences.
You're failing miserably in your failures to detail your 'method'.


I'm still waiting for you to back up your claims that you did what Jesus said and got nothing in return.
I'm still waiting for you to back up your claims that you have a 'method'.


Which is exactly the problem.
It's plainly stated that God has explicitly chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save those who believe him.
So... of course you're not interested!
Thus, you provide proof that you never actually did what Jesus said to know him.


Well, considering that you offer nothing but rants about your beliefs regarding your atheism, and how you despise wisdom and understanding, just how do you think this is going to work?
False, unsupported, ad hominem.


I state the truth, simply.
You're the one who keeps saying that I don't want to engage you.
And yet here you are...
You don't. And yup. So what?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Unsupported, false.
🤔🙄🤣
If you actually had a method, just to make sure that your ego's place on this forum was secure, you'd have taken copious steps to make sure that you detailed your method, so you could prove all of us atheists the a88holes you're convinced we are.
🙄🤣

And yet... we see nothing.
The crickets have been given the go ahead to play their nightly orchestra for years now.
🤣
Further evidence that you don't actually have a method.
🙄

Why do you do this to yourself?
Just to piss you off.

Prove me wrong.
You do it for me. Why would I want to add to perfection?
Detail your 'method'.
Simple.
Do what Jesus said.
It's been working for hundreds of millions of people throughout history.

He stated as much too.
Joh 7:16-18 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.

Mat 7:24-27 WEB 24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell—and its fall was great.”

You constantly say it is.
And?
Isn't that your complaint?
That I'm too consistent for you?
You're failing miserably in your failures to detail your 'method'.
Then it's pretty clear that you're neither reading, nor paying attention, nor have very good reading comprehension.

I'm still waiting for you to back up your claims that you have a 'method'.
Do what Jesus said.
It's been working for hundreds of millions of people throughout history.

He stated as much too.
Joh 7:16-18 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.

Mat 7:24-27 WEB 24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell—and its fall was great.”

False, unsupported, ad hominem.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🙄

You don't. And yup. So what?
Do what Jesus said.
It's been working for hundreds of millions of people throughout history.

He stated as much too.
Joh 7:16-18 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.

Mat 7:24-27 WEB 24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell—and its fall was great.”
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Do what Jesus said.
It's been working for hundreds of millions of people throughout history.

He stated as much too.
Joh 7:16-18 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 14:20-24 WEB 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, what has happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. 24 He who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words. The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.

Mat 7:24-27 WEB 24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell—and its fall was great.”
Yup. Did what he said. As have many of us. Got nothing. So your 'method' is falsified.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yup. Did what he said. As have many of us. Got nothing. So your 'method' is falsified.
Since you have repeatedly refused to actually explain what that means "you did what he said", the only thing you falsified is your actions.

Pro 18:17 WEB He who pleads his cause first seems right; until another comes and questions him.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
And yet here you are arguing about this issue, as though he can be inquired about it.
So you position is we cannot know about the events in the New Testament? That is a surprising position for a Christian to take.

But of course, it is just a position you pretend to, and there is nothing surprising abouyt a Christian doing that. Right now it is convenient for you to say we cannot know anything about the events in the Bible, but in a few minutes time it will be convenient to say that we can be sure they are true because that is what it says in the Bible.

No one ever said Christianity is consistent, right?

I earlier said:
I have a novel idea though.
You admit you were wrong.
Or, if you still think Paul changed his name from Saul, say it clearly and unambiguously.
You're losing your mind here Pixie.
The man's name is Paul. It was Saul.
And again you carefully word it so as to avoid committing yourself either way.

Where is your faith Steve? Has it deserted you?

Since he's been with Jesus since the mid sixties of the first century, this entire thread is a good example of how twisted your need to argue is.
This entire thread is about how Christians are unable to admit it when they are proved wrong.

And that makes me suspicious of every claim they make. Do you really believe Jesus was resurrected? Or is that something you believed a long time ago, and have since abandoned, but cannot admit you were wrong? I cannot tell either way.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So you position is we cannot know about the events in the New Testament? That is a surprising position for a Christian to take.
There are some events that are historical in nature and as such, have to be treated as history.
They are not scientifically replicated in a lab somewhere.
Or didn't they teach you that in school?
To understand the importance between them and their factual nature?


But of course, it is just a position you pretend to, and there is nothing surprising abouyt a Christian doing that. Right now it is convenient for you to say we cannot know anything about the events in the Bible, but in a few minutes time it will be convenient to say that we can be sure they are true because that is what it says in the Bible.
I'm not the one who has posted this OP to win lost arguments at the resurrection of Jesus in beating dead horses...

It's an historical event. Your need to make it other than what it is doesn't change history.


No one ever said Christianity is consistent, right?
Not according to you.
And again you carefully word it so as to avoid committing yourself either way.
That just tells me how much you want to win arguments instead of simply learning to understand history.

Where is your faith Steve? Has it deserted you?
Deserted me?
Nope. It's right where it's been for the past 44+ years.
Committed into the security of YHVH's keeping.
Just like Paul describes in his letter to Timothy.

2Ti 1:12 WEB For this cause I also suffer these things. Yet I am not ashamed, for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed to him against that day.

This entire thread is about how Christians are unable to admit it when they are proved wrong.
You haven't actually achieved this goal.

What you have achieved is that you will do whatever you believe is necessary to win arguments, regardless of the consequences for doing so.

It's a pity too.

Our goal is to simply get you to make YHVH's acquaintance, through Jesus Christ.



And that makes me suspicious of every claim they make.
That's why you've proven that you only want to win arguments, instead of learning to understand.


Do you really believe Jesus was resurrected?
I wouldn't be here, or living the life I do if I didn't believe he was bodily resurrected by YHVH.


Or is that something you believed a long time ago, and have since abandoned, but cannot admit you were wrong?
Convenient for you, isn't it!

I cannot tell either way.
Perhaps the problem here isn't what you think about me.
It's that you don't actually want to know the truth regarding the resurrection of Jesus and why we follow him.

Jesus said that if anyone WANTS to be his student/apprentice/disciple (the greek word for disciple is mathetes. It means one who is a learner), they must deny themselves daily, pick up their cross (instrument of death), and follow him.

We who follow Jesus are constantly in a state of learning to follow Jesus.

It's definitely worth it.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
That just tells me how much you want to win arguments instead of simply learning to understand history.
Why is it that whenever you're in an ongoing argument with someone, both of you posting back and forth, it's always THEM who needs to 'win', and never you, despite the fact that you are posting and insisting on your POV with the same vehemence?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Why is it that whenever you're in an ongoing argument with someone, both of you posting back and forth, it's always THEM who needs to 'win', and never you, despite the fact that you are posting and insisting on your POV with the same vehemence?
Because the only "win" I have is you turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus.

When this takes place, there's a seriously huge party and celebration in heaven.

Luk 15:7 WEB I tell you that even so there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance.

Luk 15:10 WEB Even so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner repenting.”

So...
I don't need to win arguments.

I would however be quite happy for you to meet YHVH and Jesus, and come follow Jesus.

I like huge celebrations. Especially these
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Because the only "win" I have is you turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus
What nonsense. You are just as keen to 'win' as what you claim we are. If you were truly trying to bring anybody to Jesus you'd actually at least attempt to communicate with us, instead of using the same tactics that - by your own admission - atheists have been telling you for a decade won't work.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What nonsense.
Yet another ill-informed opinion.

You are just as keen to 'win' as what you claim we are.
I'd be absolutely ecstatic for you to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus.

Then in another 50-80 years, depending on how old you are, we could throw a big party in heaven celebrating the Grace of God demonstrated by him in our lives!


If you were truly trying to bring anybody to Jesus you'd actually at least attempt to communicate with us, instead of using the same tactics that - by your own admission - atheists have been telling you for a decade won't work.
What atheists believe about the methods selected by YHVH to save humanity is immaterial.

I've been learning throughout the past several decades that it's counterproductive to counter mand the choices and methods that God has explicitly chosen.

1Co 1:21 WEB For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.


Especially when this is not a philosophical construct designed to win arguments.

It's a relational dynamic between YHVH and the people who believe him.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
I'd be absolutely ecstatic for you to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus.
Yeah. Because you'd 'win'.
Then in another 50-80 years, depending on how old you are, we could throw a big party in heaven celebrating the Grace of God demonstrated by him in our lives!
I'd be too busy asking him why he didn't give all of my relatives in hell evidence of his existence, and why he's such a monster.
What atheists believe about the methods selected by YHVH to save humanity is immaterial.
Nobody is talking about the methods selected by YHVH. We are talking about the methods selected by YOU.
I've been learning throughout the past several decades that it's counterproductive to counter mand the choices and methods that God has explicitly chosen.
Again, nobody's talking about them.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
There are some events that are historical in nature and as such, have to be treated as history.
They are not scientifically replicated in a lab somewhere.
Or didn't they teach you that in school?
To understand the importance between them and their factual nature?
The issue here is YOUR view on events in the NewTestament, Steve. Last time you said "And yet here you are arguing about this issue, as though he can be inquired about it." Now - inevitably - you have flipped to saying we can.

As I said before, you position at any given moment is just whatever happens to be convenient at that moment. At that point in our discussion it was useful for you to pretend "And yet here you are arguing about this issue, as though he can be inquired about it." Now, you have reverted to your usual, and I guess real, position that is the complete opposite of that.


There are some events that are historical in nature and as such, have to be treated as history.
They are not scientifically replicated in a lab somewhere.
Or didn't they teach you that in school?
To understand the importance between them and their factual nature?
Worth recalling the supposed event this is all about. You said:

I think part of the problem you're having here is that you're unaware of what happened in the first century community of Jewish people, who came to follow Jesus. Paul was not an ignorant man. He was Saul of Tarsus prior to changing his name. He was one seriously fired up Pharisee, bent on destroying this new upstart sect of Judaism, which he felt detracted from Temple Judaism.

Are you claiming that is factual?

I'm not the one who has posted this OP to win lost arguments at the resurrection of Jesus in beating dead horses...
And yet you keep posting on it. Why do that if it is a dead horse?

Personally, I do it to highlight the fact that Christians cannot admit they are wrong to atheists, which makes every claim they make suspect. Who knows what claim about the resurrection they do not actually believe, but cannot bring themselves to admit they were wrong?

Deserted me?
Nope. It's right where it's been for the past 44+ years.
Committed into the security of YHVH's keeping.
Just like Paul describes in his letter to Timothy.
So have the courage of your faith to say unambiguous whether or not Paul changed his name from Saul.

We both know you will not. You cannot, because you know he did not, but your pride is too big to admit you were wrong.

I wouldn't be here, or living the life I do if I didn't believe he was bodily resurrected by YHVH.
And yet you are posting on this thread determined not to admit that Paul never changed his name, when you are clearly not willing to state that he did.

Looks to me like this thread could be a microcosm for CARM as a whole. Why should I believe otherwise, Steve?

Perhaps the problem here isn't what you think about me.
It's that you don't actually want to know the truth regarding the resurrection of Jesus and why we follow him.

Jesus said that if anyone WANTS to be his student/apprentice/disciple (the greek word for disciple is mathetes. It means one who is a learner), they must deny themselves daily, pick up their cross (instrument of death), and follow him.

We who follow Jesus are constantly in a state of learning to follow Jesus.

It's definitely worth it.
Why would I trust the opinion of a guy who lacks the conviction in his beliefs to say unambiguous whether or not Paul changed his name from Saul (or admit he does not know)?

Do you actually think this is true? Or are you just unwilling to admit you are wrong? Who knows?
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
And yet you are posting on this thread determined not to admit that Paul never changed his name, when you are clearly not willing to state that he did.

Getting hard up for subjects upon which to vent your inherently humorless anger? Finally got bored with whining about "chattel slavery?" We know Saul's name got changed. We know not by whom, and I doubt anyone cares. Steve thinks Paul did it. I don't care. Not exactly a heavy doctrinal issue upon which you have now wasted several days and thousands of words.

To modify the Bard:

"What's in a name changer's name? A name changer by any other name would change the same name."
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Yeah. Because you'd 'win'.
Not my win.
Yours.
I just get to celebrate your salvation from sin and receiving the gift of eternal life.
I'd be too busy asking him why he didn't give all of my relatives in hell evidence of his existence, and why he's such a monster.
Ironically, we'll all be given the answer to this question.
Everyone is given the same choice as we are.
Those who go to hell chose to. They rejected the gift, and chose to cling to their sin.

Nobody is talking about the methods selected by YHVH. We are talking about the methods selected by YOU.
I did what Jesus said.
Kept his word.
He was quite clear that we're to believe on him whom YHVH sent.
Jesus said that if we continue to keep his teachings, we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.
He said that we must be born again. He said that unless we have a righteousness that exceeds mere outward morality, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. He said that he will give us his righteousness by believing him.
The bible is filled with everything we need to know the truth.

You have to learn, and do in order to know.



Again, nobody's talking about them.
You should be.
I have been for years.
All you ever say is that you don't want to hear preaching/sermons.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Not my win.
Yours.
I just get to celebrate your salvation from sin and receiving the gift of eternal life.
Preaching. Not interested.
Ironically, we'll all be given the answer to this question.
Everyone is given the same choice as we are.
Those who go to hell chose to. They rejected the gift, and chose to cling to their sin.
If I go to hell, it is because God chose to send me there. I nowhere at any stage have chosen to do so.
I did what Jesus said.
Kept his word.
He was quite clear that we're to believe on him whom YHVH sent.
Jesus said that if we continue to keep his teachings, we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.
He said that we must be born again. He said that unless we have a righteousness that exceeds mere outward morality, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. He said that he will give us his righteousness by believing him.
The bible is filled with everything we need to know the truth.
Preaching, not interested.
You have to learn, and do in order to know.
You've provided zero evidence that you have anything to teach that anybody needs to learn.
You should be.
I have been for years.
Yet, sadly, you can't actually enumerate them.
All you ever say is that you don't want to hear preaching/sermons.
Blatantly and obviously false.
 

Lucian

Member
From an exchange on another thread.




This poster says I am embarrassing myself.... And I take that as a challenge, so here is the thread where we can see just who should be embarrassed.

Having read the Bible for understanding, I can see that Paul was called Saul contemporaneously - that means at the same time, Steve.

He had a Roman name, Paul, and he also had a Hebrew name, Saul. Both at the same time. He did not change his name.

Act 13:9 WEB But Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fastened his eyes on him,

See the tenses there? Both present tense, because he still used both names at the time of the narrative.
I don't think it's unreasonable to say there was a change of name. Paul clearly decided to start going by that name at some point in his ministry, even if his old one wasn't completely abandoned.

Note that there's no verb in the part of the verse in bold, but the past tense should probably be supplied.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
I don't think it's unreasonable to say there was a change of name. Paul clearly decided to start going by that name at some point in his ministry, even if his old one wasn't completely abandoned.

Note that there's no verb in the part of the verse in bold, but the past tense should probably be supplied.
It is possible he changed his name, but the point is that the text does not say that and we have no reason to think he did.
 

Lucian

Member
It is possible he changed his name, but the point is that the text does not say that and we have no reason to think he did.
It's more than merely possible. You're right that the text doesn't say that, but you're wrong to say that we have no reason to think he did. He only ever calls himself Paul in the letters we have from him (interestingly, his imitators also only ever use the name). This doesn't prove that he changed his name, but it's certainly a reason to suppose he did.
 
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