Did the (actual, historical) Jesus live in 100 BC? by GRS Mead

docphin5

Well-known member
I came across this really good book (1) written over a hundred years ago that pulls together all available Jewish traditions about Jesus and concludes (by Mead over 100 years ago) that the actual, historical Jesus, the founder of Christianity, aka, “The Way”, was martyred during the reign of Queen Salome, the ruling monarch of Israel around 76 BC.

What does this have to with atheists?

Answer: Historical truth.

For an actual historical person named Joshua (Jesus is a mistranslation in the christian canon) according to none other than the Jews themselves. Of course, the Pharisees (who developed later into modern rabbis) labeled him a heretic and for some unknown reason to me called him Jeschu.

So this Jeschu or Joshua (or Jesus) was equivalent to the Teacher of Righteousness in the Dead Sea Scrolls martyred during the reign of Salome, monarch ruler of Israel beginning around 76 BC. Her husband, namely, king/high priest Alexander Jannei died leaving her in charge with two of his sons.

Therefore, the Dead Sea Scroll independently support Mead’s conclusion after analyzing Jewish Talmud and Toldoth legends.

THEREFORE, I repeat, therefore, whenever a new testament letter written by Paul refers to a human the anointed Joshua (aka “Jesus Christ”) Paul can ONLY be referring to the historical founder of ”The Way” who lived and died ONE HUNDRED YEARS EARLIER, who is the central figure of the Dead Sea Scroll Jewish community. In addition, the “spirit of Jesus” identified by Paul to be indwelling the sons and daughters of light would not be an independent ”person” or independent soul but instead the same moral consciousness or “spirit” formed in the previous Joshua who lived one hundred years earlier. Does that make sense?

Moreover the ANOINTING of this Joshua (who lived one hundred years before Paul), aka, “Jesus Christ” is inside every pious, virtuous soul according to the apostle Paul. TO BE CLEAR, the person of this Joshua who lived one hundred years earlier is NOT in the virtuous soul today, because obviously Joshua died a long time ago and remains dead but, BUT instead his anointing or spirit or moral consciousness, —the moral consciousness that grew in him now grows in us!

This ^^^^^ is what Paul wrote about that is actually historically verified both by Jewish tradition and independently verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls. The founder of christianity lived around 100 BC.

Consequently, the four canonical Gospels were esoteric, mythical, illustrative STORIES erroneously made historical by christian orthodoxy.

It is waaaayyyyyy past time to relook, reconsider, Paul’s letters in light of the actual, historical information available for anyone and everyone to confirm for themselves WHO the actual Jesus was and what Paul said about him.

The original Joshua or Jesus was a simple man, moral teacher, ascetic, in whom a moral consciousness grew to be recognized by other Jews earning the title to be called anointed by the spirit, aka, the Christ on earth.

1. Did Jesus live 100 BC?
 
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Moreover the ANOINTING of this Joshua (who lived one hundred years before Paul), aka, “Jesus Christ” is inside every pious, virtuous soul according to the apostle Paul. TO BE CLEAR, the person of this Joshua who lived one hundred years earlier is NOT in the virtuous soul today, because obviously Joshua died a long time ago and remains dead but, BUT instead his anointing or spirit or moral consciousness, —the moral consciousness that grew in him now grows in us.

So you read one book about some guy who lived 2100 years ago, of whom you had never heard before getting the book, and now you're convinced the guy's spirit and ''moral consciousness" is growing inside of you, since what with your being a "pious and virtuous soul," you consider yourself qualified to have his spirit inside you?
 
So you read one book about some guy who lived 2100 years ago, of whom you had never heard before getting the book, and now you're convinced the guy's spirit and ''moral consciousness" is growing inside of you, since what with your being a "pious and virtuous soul," you consider yourself qualified to have his spirit inside you?
Dont be silly. There is only ONE Good that can arise in any human consciousness so it does not belong to any one individual human on earth but belongs to all. That is why christianity is at its core a universal religion. What it SHOULD be before self-appointed priests turn it into a partisan endeavor.
 
S
I came across this really good book (1) written over a hundred years ago that pulls together all available Jewish traditions about Jesus and concludes (by Mead over 100 years ago) that the actual, historical Jesus, the founder of Christianity, aka, “The Way”, was martyred during the reign of Queen Salome, the ruling monarch of Israel around 76 BC.

What does this have to with atheists?

Answer: Historical truth.

For an actual historical person named Joshua (Jesus is a mistranslation in the christian canon) according to none other than the Jews themselves. Of course, the Pharisees (who developed later into modern rabbis) labeled him a heretic and for some unknown reason to me called him Jeschu.

So this Jeschu or Joshua (or Jesus) was equivalent to the Teacher of Righteousness in the Dead Sea Scrolls martyred during the reign of Salome, monarch ruler of Israel beginning around 76 BC. Her husband, namely, king/high priest Alexander Jannei died leaving her in charge with two of his sons.

Therefore, the Dead Sea Scroll independently support Mead’s conclusion after analyzing Jewish Talmud and Toldoth legends.

THEREFORE, I repeat, therefore, whenever a new testament letter written by Paul refers to a human the anointed Joshua (aka “Jesus Christ”) Paul can ONLY be referring to the historical founder of ”The Way” who lived and died ONE HUNDRED YEARS EARLIER, who is the central figure of the Dead Sea Scroll Jewish community. In addition, the “spirit of Jesus” identified by Paul to be indwelling the sons and daughters of light would not be an independent ”person” or independent soul but instead the same moral consciousness or “spirit” formed in the previous Joshua who lived one hundred years earlier. Does that make sense?

Moreover the ANOINTING of this Joshua (who lived one hundred years before Paul), aka, “Jesus Christ” is inside every pious, virtuous soul according to the apostle Paul. TO BE CLEAR, the person of this Joshua who lived one hundred years earlier is NOT in the virtuous soul today, because obviously Joshua died a long time ago and remains dead but, BUT instead his anointing or spirit or moral consciousness, —the moral consciousness that grew in him now grows in us!

This ^^^^^ is what Paul wrote about that is actually historically verified both by Jewish tradition and independently verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls. The founder of christianity lived around 100 BC.

Consequently, the four canonical Gospels were esoteric, mythical, illustrative STORIES erroneously made historical by christian orthodoxy.

It is waaaayyyyyy past time to relook, reconsider, Paul’s letters in light of the actual, historical information available for anyone and everyone to confirm for themselves WHO the actual Jesus was and what Paul said about him.

The original Joshua or Jesus was a simple man, moral teacher, ascetic, in whom a moral consciousness grew to be recognized by other Jews earning the title to be called anointed by the spirit, aka, the Christ on earth.

1. Did Jesus live 100 BC?

1. I think of a moral conscience as something in my head, produced by my brain. So when you say "
the moral consciousness that grew in him now grows in us
Do you mean that metaphorically?


2. How do you know there aren't two people with similar names?
 
In anticipation of the question,

Why did the Essenes (and Paul, and Peter, and James, et al) place so much emphasis on a single, unique, teacher? a Messianic figure? —I would answer:

there are many moral teachers in the history of Judaism, as well as, in the history of the world, eg., Greek moral philosophers, Buddhas, brahmans, sages, egyptian heirophants, , Etc.,

JUST AS

there are stars in the night sky illuminating the darkness for pious, virtuous souls to navigate their way in this dark world, BUT, —but,

according to this sect of Jews who developed into Christianity, namely, Essenes, there are ONLY SEVEN stars in the history of humanity who shine so brightly that they are equivalent to the day star at noon in the sky which extinguishes darkness in its place. Apparently, the anointed Joshua was considered by this sect of Judaism to be one of those SEVEN DAY STARS manifesting in his “appointed time.”

IOW, all of human history walks, lives in darkness illuminated by the faintest moral light, ie., “the stars” and “moon”, according to the figurative meaning, EXCEPT when the intellectual sun “Rises” in humanity at seven appointed times (corresponding with the “days” of creation in the Biblical creation myth) when the moral light is the brightest! Presumably, this sect could mark the passing of real time by the appearance of these enlightened souls. This is IMO the biggest secret held by this sect (one of the few secrets actually encrypted in the Dead Sea Scrolls), , the marking of time according to the plan of the Most High God.

This explains why christianity is waiting for the “Last Day.” The anointed Joshua or TOR claimed to be the “anointed one” cutoff in the last half of the “week” of seven days, per Daniel, making him the fifth Christ on earth. Presuming Paul subsequently was the sixth “day” of that week, then logically we wait for the “Last Day” of that week. IOW, we wait for the final moral teacher on earth before the ”new creation.”
 
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S


1. I think of a moral conscience as something in my head, produced by my brain. So when you say "
Yes, a moral conscience is part of our consciousness and our consciousness is an emerging property of being or existence.

Not to sidetrack the discussion but the name “YHWH” means to be or to exist and Yashua (or Jesus) means “being or existence BECOMES salvation”.

Therefore, in reality we humans are matter (or existence) developing a moral consciousness in the same way “YHWH becomes salvation”. The point being that a moral consciousness in humans IS the purpose of being or existence.

As a side, the Jewish names of things in scripture is like the American Indian names of things. The names have meaning. For example, common Indian names have meaning: warrior-spirit, leaping-water, daughter-of-the-moon, etc., in the same way Jewish names have meaning. There is a reason the names were selected for use in Hebrew scripture that has been suppressed by orthodoxy to promote names as literal things.

For example, what is written in the Bible as “Beth-El” meaning the ”house of God” merely becomes to orthodoxy, Bethel, a city where the patriarch, Jacob, or Isra-El (aka, the one who sees God) builds an altar.

Is their intent by the author of Hebrew scripture to convey a meaning otherwise unknown to Christian orthodoxy who pretty much takes everything literally (as did the Pharisees)? Whereas, the priestly class administering the temple rituals in second century BC understood the intended meaning (which has been lost to the modern mind)?

Do you mean that metaphorically?
Nope. A moral consciousness in humans is a real thing.
2. How do you know there aren't two people with similar names?
There were probably lots of people in second temple Judaism with the name “Joshua”, in fact the teacher of Joshua or Jesus, per the Jewish Talmud, was a famous Pharisee also named Joshua ben (son of) Perachiah (look him up!), but how many of them were both derided in the Jewish Talmud as the leader of the sect of Jewish Christians and honored as a wise teacher, a Messianic figure, in the Dead Sea Scrolls during the reign of Salome? Not many I am guessing.
 
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Yes, a moral conscience is part of our consciousness and our consciousness is an emerging property of being or existence.

Not to sidetrack the discussion but the name “YHWH” means to be or to exist and Yashua (or Jesus) means “being or existence BECOMES salvation”.

Therefore, in reality we humans are matter (or existence) developing a moral consciousness in the same way “YHWH becomes salvation”. The point being that a moral consciousness in humans IS the purpose of being or existence.

As a side, the Jewish names of things in scripture is like the American Indian names of things. The names have meaning. For example, common Indian names have meaning: warrior-spirit, leaping-water, daughter-of-the-moon, etc., in the same way Jewish names have meaning. There is a reason the names were selected for use in Hebrew scripture that has been suppressed by orthodoxy to promote names as literal things.

For example, what is written in the Bible as “Beth-El” meaning the ”house of God” merely becomes to orthodoxy, Bethel, a city where the patriarch, Jacob, or Isra-El (aka, the one who sees God) builds an altar.

Is their intent by the author of Hebrew scripture to convey a meaning otherwise unknown to Christian orthodoxy who pretty much takes everything literally (as did the Pharisees)? Whereas, the priestly class administering the temple rituals in second century BC understood the intended meaning (which has been lost to the modern mind)?
Ok
Nope. A moral consciousness in humans is a real thing.
When you say the same consciousness do you mean the same as in identity or the same as in sharing similar or identical qualities?
There were probably lots of people in second temple Judaism with the name “Joshua”, in fact the teacher of Joshua or Jesus, per the Jewish Talmud, was a famous Pharisee also named Joshua ben (son of) Perachiah (look him up!), but how many of them were both derided in the Jewish Talmud as the leader of the sect of Jewish Christians and honored as a wise teacher, a Messianic figure, in the Dead Sea Scrolls during the reign of Salome? Not many I am guessing.
It is a bit of a guess though.
 
Ok

When you say the same consciousness do you mean the same as in identity or the same as in sharing similar or identical qualities?
I am saying that the “spirit of Joshua” or moral consciousness of Joshua can be developed by any virtuous soul. To the degree that the soul approaches moral purity using right reason for Good, for the Happy life, then the human soul draws nearer to the absolute Good One himself. It is a quality of choosing the Good in any situation. A quality of the soul which must be developed by the individual. In that way a simple human can “grow into Christ.”

“we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,” (Ephesians 4:15)​
Paul uses a lot of religious technical jargon to get his point across but strip it down to modern terms and it is not really complicated. The ”spirit of Joshua” is the quality of right thinking or moral consciousness. Some people develop that ability better than others. Apparently, the sect of Judaism which evolved into Christianity identified their founder to have achieved a level of moral perfection to be emulated by others, therefore, Paul writes that the “spirit of Joshua” is also in the sons and daughters of light, who are being perfected morally as they “grow into Christ.” IOW they are becoming like the founder of their religion.

“the fruit of the Spirit [of Joshua] is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” (Gal. 5:22)​


It is a bit of a guess though.
An educated guess based on actual evidence from independent sources and supported by reason. It is applying reason to the evidence which is available for review by anyone. Kind of a scientific, critical thinking, approach to arrive at the truth.
 
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When do you think Paul lived? When was he writing his letters?

When Paul writes about James, Peter and John (Gal 2:9), was he talking about an actual meeting? How does that fit into your time line?
 
When do you think Paul lived? When was he writing his letters?
Most scholars say he wrote his epistles between 50 CE and 67 CE.

When Paul writes about James, Peter and John (Gal 2:9), was he talking about an actual meeting? How does that fit into your time line?
Paul writes about meeting them.

As far as timeline goes Paul, Peter, and James would have lived one hundred years after the historical Joshua identified in both the Jewish Talmud and in the Dead Sea Scrolls as the founder or leader of the sect of Essenes.

The most common assertion about Jesus or Jeschu in the Talmud and Toldoth legends was that he was condemned, hung on a tree (crucified?), and/or stoned during the reign of Salome beginning at 76 BC.

The Dead Sea Scrolls INDEPENDENTLY confirm this date when the leader or founder of “The Way” was martyred during the reign of Salome beginning at 76 BC.

Therefore, Paul, Peter, and James lived one hundred years (100 years) AFTER the anointed Joshua led the Essenes per the tradition of the Jews.

IMO, the canonical Gospels anchor “Jesus” in the first century CE because Paul was considered a quasi-reincarnation of the anointed Joshua (or at least his “spirit”) who actually lived one hundred years earlier. So the authors of the canonical Gospels gather all spiritual teachings from the Essenes to include Paul’s epistles, Philo’s writings, moral philosophers, Hebrew scriptures, etc., and attribute them to the ONE manifest “spirit of Jesus” working through Paul, as if, the previous teacher had returned, according to the secret teaching of the Essenes, ie., “two anointed ones” among the SEVEN unique, anointed moral teachers to come in the history of humanity.

It may have something to do with the following:

“These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zech 4:14)​
and this

“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.” (Rev 11:3)​
 
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Most scholars say he wrote his epistles between 50 CE and 67 CE.

Paul writes about meeting them.

As far as timeline goes Paul, Peter, and James would have lived one hundred years after the historical Joshua identified in both the Jewish Talmud and in the Dead Sea Scrolls as the founder or leader of the sect of Essenes.
Okay, so you go with the conventional dating for them, so not contentious.

Paul says Jesus appeared to Peter and then to James (1 Cor 15). Do you think that happened 100 years after Jesus was executed?

The most common assertion about Jesus or Jeschu in the Talmud and Toldoth legends was that he was condemned, hung on a tree (crucified?), and/or stoned during the reign of Salome beginning at 76 BC.

The Dead Sea Scrolls INDEPENDENTLY confirm this date when the leader or founder of “The Way” was martyred during the reign of Salome beginning at 76 BC.
Or someone with the same name was executed then.

It may have something to do with the following:

“These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zech 4:14)​
and this

“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.” (Rev 11:3)​
I would guess Zechariah is talking about the two messiahs, the kingly and the priestly, which is what the later Dead Sea Scrolls community expected. That does not really fit with Jesus, who was proclaimed as the single messiah, as the idea had evolved by his time.

That said, the verses in Revelation undoubtedly reference Zech 4. Did the author see Jesus as one of the two? I would guess not.
 
Okay, so you go with the conventional dating for them, so not contentious.

Paul says Jesus appeared to Peter and then to James (1 Cor 15). Do you think that happened 100 years after Jesus was executed?
I do not see anywhere in 1 corinthians 15 that a dead human being named Joshua reassembled his decomposing flesh and visibly manifested or “appeared” in flesh and bone to be seen by Paul’s eyeballs or anyone’s eyeballs for that matter. It is not there. People have deluded themselves to think that it is.

Instead,

Paul prefaces this section (1 cor 15) twice with the clause “according to scripture” followed by the Greek word “horao” translated by orthodoxy to the english word “appeared”. But what orthodoxy will never tell you is that it also means “to perceive“ with the mind.

From Biblehub
3708
horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
”to see with the mind, to perceive, know: absolutely,” (Bible hub)

Putting the two ideas together it is logical to assume Paul is ACTUALLY writing that he and the other members of the Essene sect, ie., Jewish-Christians, PERCEIVED FROM SCRIPTURE THE DYING/RISING Christ.

Then he calls it “the abortion” (1 cor 15:8) which is commonly used in gnostic sophia mythology as the descent of wisdom into materiality.

So it is more complicated than just Paul saw a reassembled corpse. There apparently was a sophia mythology already known by his audience which he was referring to. Since orthodoxy destroyed and/or suppresses this information nobody today has the base knowledge that Paul is referring to. Except that the discovery of the Nag Hammadi, early church fathers, and arguably the dead sea touch on it.

Therefore, to fully understand what Paul and his fellow apostles “PERCEIVED ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE” about “”THE ABORTION” one would have to get up to speed on what gnostic/mystic Jews/Essenes knew about the sophia mythology. Since orthodoxy will never do that then it is up to the individual to do it for himself. The information is available in the gnostic literature but one will have to seek it out.

That is unfortunate for atheists who have no interest in seeking this out so just remember this: no where in that narrative is a dead human being explicitly mentioned. I don’t even think he mentions the name Joshua. Instead the “christ” or anointing is mentioned as having died and rising “according to scripture” and Paul, et al. “Perceive” this with their consciousness because in fact that anointing or christ or moral consciousness rises in them.

There is a lot more going on in this section of Paul’s epistle theologically speaking than a reassembled human corpse walking around and “appearing” to everyone.


Or someone with the same name was executed then.


I would guess Zechariah is talking about the two messiahs, the kingly and the priestly, which is what the later Dead Sea Scrolls community expected. That does not really fit with Jesus, who was proclaimed as the single messiah, as the idea had evolved by his time.
Technically, the “christ” is a title given to a human with a superior moral consciousness to do good. Isaiah identifies the Persian King Cyrus as a christ figure (Isaiah 45:1) for doing a good thing to the Jews, specifically, returning their land to them.

“Thus says the LORD to his anointed [Messiah], to Cyrus,” (Is 45:1)​

Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls predict THREE messiahs in the “Last Days”.

What is messing everyone up is the historizing of the canonical Gospels. The reading of them puts a veil over the mind of Christians, just as the reading of Moses puts a veil over the minds of the Pharisees/modern Rabbis.

“to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.” (2 cor 3:15)

Whenever orthodoxy reads the canonical Gospels a veil remains because the Gospels were never meant to be taken literally. And as long as orthodoxy takes them literally then they never know what it means. They are always trying to force a mythical square peg into a real-world historical round hole. Their minds are trapped in error.

Simply, Paul’s epistles are never referring to the canonical Gospel myths. Instead, it is the other way around. The canonical Gospel stories were COMPOSED in an esoteric narrative from Paul’s epistles and other materials.

That said, the verses in Revelation undoubtedly reference Zech 4. Did the author see Jesus as one of the two? I would guess not.
IMO, the author of Revelations saw the Joshua living in 100 BC as one of the two anointed ones all the Essenes saw, —nay, perceived, mentally perceived (there is that word again), him as one.. I am uncertain who the other anointed one in Revelations is supposed to be, either Paul or maybe James, IMO. I probably should not have mentioned it because it distracts from the OP.
 
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So you read one book about some guy who lived 2100 years ago, of whom you had never heard before getting the book, and now you're convinced the guy's spirit and ''moral consciousness" is growing inside of you, since what with your being a "pious and virtuous soul," you consider yourself qualified to have his spirit inside you?
Pronoun has itching ears and falls for anything but biblical Truth.
 
I do not see anywhere in 1 corinthians 15 that a dead human being named Joshua reassembled his decomposing flesh and visibly manifested or “appeared” in flesh and bone to be seen by Paul’s eyeballs or anyone’s eyeballs for that matter. It is not there. People have deluded themselves to think that it is.
What it says is:

1 Cor 15:3 For I handed down to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to [c]Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to [d]James, then to all the apostles;

Did Paul believe Jesus appeared to Peter and James in some form?

I agree not flesh and blood; I think Paul thought it was in a new spiritual body. But that happened not that long after Jesus was executed.

Instead,

Paul prefaces this section (1 cor 15) twice with the clause “according to scripture” followed by the Greek word “horao” translated by orthodoxy to the english word “appeared”. But what orthodoxy will never tell you is that it also means “to perceive“ with the mind.
I think "according to the Scriptures" refers specifically to "He was raised on the third day", as that was not witnessed by anyone (the empty tomb being made up later).

From Biblehub
3708
horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
”to see with the mind, to perceive, know: absolutely,” (Bible hub)

Putting the two ideas together it is logical to assume Paul is ACTUALLY writing that he and the other members of the Essene sect, ie., Jewish-Christians, PERCEIVED FROM SCRIPTURE THE DYING/RISING Christ.
That seems quite a reach. It very much comes across as an actual event. Are you saying Peter suddenly read about Jesus' resurrection, and then all the disciples read about it? And this was what Paul was writing about?

Then he calls it “the abortion” (1 cor 15:8) which is commonly used in gnostic sophia mythology as the descent of wisdom into materiality.
He calls himself the abortion, possibly because of a congenital defeat he suffered from.

Technically, the “christ” is a title given to a human with a superior moral consciousness to do good. Isaiah identifies the Persian King Cyrus as a christ figure (Isaiah 45:1) for doing a good thing to the Jews, specifically, returning their land to them.

“Thus says the LORD to his anointed [Messiah], to Cyrus,” (Is 45:1)​
Technically messiah means anyone anointed with oil, which would be the king and the high priest. And yes, Cyrus the great too.
 
What it says is:

1 Cor 15:3 For I handed down to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to [c]Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to [d]James, then to all the apostles;

Did Paul believe Jesus appeared to Peter and James in some form?
The Christ was “perceived“ by the Essenes (Paul, et al) as “the abortion” ”according to scripture”. Perceived, mentally perceived. no new spiritual body, no ghosts, no material body either. Mentally perceived to both die and rise according to scripture.

The “rising” part has to do with the rising moral consciousness in every pious, virtuous soul but especially in the three unique moral teachers predicted to come in the ”last days” per the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The “dying” part has to do with the flesh of man which ultimately dies but metaphorically dies when the moral consciousness ”rising” in humans denies the flesh its inordinate lusts, passions, and desires.

The word “raised” in the scripture you posted is used by Paul elsewhere as pertaining to virtuous souls just as the christ was “raised”. This is not a physical resurrection into flesh and blood because it has not happened to us but is a moral awareness and right thinking that both rose in Joshua living in 100 BC and virtuous souls living in Paul’s time. Think about it.

“having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:12)​
There is NO supernatural, nature breaking, human corpse rising from the dead…EVER in Paul’s epistles. It is the rising moral consciousness from a dead way of living in ignorance, darkness, and sin. Not until we become conscious of the absolute Good and align ourselves with it, are we ”raised“ just as the Joshua of 100 BC was raised.

As a side, there is also a bodily resurrection of the cosmos which results in a new heaven and earth but that is future according to their speculative theology.



I agree not flesh and blood; I think Paul thought it was in a new spiritual body. But that happened not that long after Jesus was executed.


I think "according to the Scriptures" refers specifically to "He was raised on the third day", as that was not witnessed by anyone (the empty tomb being made up later).

Or the scripture being referred to is in Hosea which has nothing to do with a reassembled human corpse.

“on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.” (Hosea 6:2)

That seems quite a reach. It very much comes across as an actual event. Are you saying Peter suddenly read about Jesus' resurrection, and then all the disciples read about it? And this was what Paul was writing about?
see above. The rising moral consciousness in every virtuous soul especially the unique moral teachers predicted to come, to include the Joshua living in 100 BC, who founded the Jewish Messianic movement called “the way”. (See dead scrolls)

He calls himself the abortion, possibly because of a congenital defeat he suffered from.
Or he is using a religious metaphor for lifeless matter commonly known by every gnostic christian in the first century ce. (See nag hammadi) What do you think?

Technically messiah means anyone anointed with oil, which would be the king and the high priest. And yes, Cyrus the great too.
It has multiple meanings. The physical oil anointing of a physical king would be the type for the spiritual meaning.
 
The Christ was “perceived“ by the Essenes (Paul, et al) as “the abortion” ”according to scripture”.
Why do you think ἐκτρώματι refers to Jesus, rather than Paul?


Perceived, mentally perceived. no new spiritual body, no ghosts, no material body either. Mentally perceived to both die and rise according to scripture.
Why do you think it means perceive mentally?

There is a list of usages in Matthew, Mark and Luke here; a quick skim of them suggests the term is used for when something is actually seen.

The “rising” part has to do with the rising moral consciousness in every pious, virtuous soul but especially in the three unique moral teachers predicted to come in the ”last days” per the Dead Sea Scrolls.
And yet the rest of the chapter seems concerned with an actual resurrection - in a spiritual body.

The word “raised” in the scripture you posted is used by Paul elsewhere as pertaining to virtuous souls just as the christ was “raised”. This is not a physical resurrection into flesh and blood because it has not happened to us but is a moral awareness and right thinking that both rose in Joshua living in 100 BC and virtuous souls living in Paul’s time. Think about it.
Not to flesh and blood, no, but in a new spiritual body.

And it has not happened to us because Paul was wrong.

Or the scripture being referred to is in Hosea which has nothing to do with a reassembled human corpse.

“on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.” (Hosea 6:2)
That is certainly the scripture Paul references. Why should we think it is about rising moral awareness? Or rather, why should we think Paul understood it that way?

I am still not clear on what you think 1 Cor 15 describes. Is this just about Peter and the rest reading scripture?
 
Why do you think ἐκτρώματι refers to Jesus, rather than Paul?
Per gnostic literature “the abortion” is a metaphor for the christ’s descent into materiality. Iow, Jewish speculative theology pertaining to cosmogenesis and the formation of matter. Simply, they speculated that the one universe before matter formed in our present time (ie before the big Bang) suffered a perturbation resulting in lifeless imperfect matter which they metaphorically called “the abortion” probably because the birth of our universe produced a lifeless world (the dying christ) BEFORE a moral consciousness arose in virtuous human souls (the rising christ). They also theorized that our universe before the big bang possessed a world-soul or moral intelligence, then died producing our present material world.

All Paul is saying to his audience is that he as well as the other Essenes possessing a rising moral conscious (similar to the one Joshua had 100 years before) “PERCEIVED” “ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE” the dying and rising cosmic Christ, aka, “the abortion”.

Do we all die in christ? Yes.
Does Christ rise through and in our moral consciousness? Yes

Did Christ rise in Joshua 100 years earlier? Yes
Did the simple man, named, Joshua, who founded “The Way” live and die 100 years earlier? Yes.

The point being that the fact Paul writes both of the macrocosmic christ (associated with cosmogenesis) and the microcosmic christ rising in individuals does not preclude either one for they are connected, physically connected through nature and its emerging moral consciousness in virtuous souls.

Everything Paul is describing in the present world is natural. And he speculates theologically what came before the ”foundation of our world, aka, the Big Bang which produced lifeless matter, aka, “the abortion.”


That is certainly the scripture Paul references. Why should we think it is about rising moral awareness? Or rather, why should we think Paul understood it that way?

because paul says so both figuratively (eg., light of the world, spiritual understanding, etc.) and explicitly (eg, “be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” Romans 12:2). Apparently he believed that a moral consciousness in the individual can be developed and can grow into something even better.

I am still not clear on what you think 1 Cor 15 describes. Is this just about Peter and the rest reading scripture?
He is referring to the sophia mythology that his audience is well aware of based on speculative theology pertaining to cosmogenesis and the descent of christ into materiality. It sounds foreign to orthodoxy because they destroyed and suppressed the gnostic teachings. Once one becomes familiar with the gnostic tenets then many things in Paul’s epistles make sense.

If I may try to bring this back to the OP then if the historical Joshua lived one hundred years before Paul as Jewish tradition holds then he was a simple human being like you and me presumably with a superior moral awareness making him unique in that way. But if a simple human then we must begin to relook at Paul’s letters in that light and in the light of gnostic tenets. That is the what I was emphasizing with this OP. That is, the historical Joshua was a simple human who actually lived 100 years earlier than Paul.
 
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There is a list of usages in Matthew, Mark and Luke here; a quick skim of them suggests the term is used for when something is actually seen.
The irony is that Even when used literally in a narrative the term itself may actually have an esoteric meaning if the narrative itself is written esoterically. For example,

“And behold (Greek: horao) , the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was.” (Matt 2:9)​
If taken literally, allegedly the three magi followed a star in the sky with their eyes to the exact child and house in a city. Given the fact a star could not be followed with the eyes to a specific house and child in a city then what may be referred to using mental perception?

One explanation briefly states that the three kings represent orion’s belt (three eastern stars) pointing directly to the star, Sirius, which appears just over the horizon exactly at summer solstice. The idea being that orions belt, sirius, and the solar sun‘s yearly cycle are syncronized to mark the decreasing and increasing light signifying (not causal) the TOR’s (cypher being the canonical John the Baptist’s) decreasing light and Paul’s (cypher being the canonical Gospel jesus) increasing light. IOW, the baton was passing from one unique moral leader to another, that is, one intellectual sun to another.

“He [Jesus] must increase but I [John the Baptist] must decrease” (John iii. 30).​
He [John the Baptist] was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. (John 5:35)​
The point being that there is richness to scripture that we can never appreciate unless we seek through mental perception, moral faculties, right reason, its true meaning.
 
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Per gnostic literature “the abortion” is a metaphor for the christ’s descent into materiality. Iow, Jewish speculative theology pertaining to cosmogenesis and the formation of matter. Simply, they speculated that the one universe before matter formed in our present time (ie before the big Bang) suffered a perturbation resulting in lifeless imperfect matter which they metaphorically called “the abortion” probably because the birth of our universe produced a lifeless world (the dying christ) BEFORE a moral consciousness arose in virtuous human souls (the rising christ). They also theorized that our universe before the big bang possessed a world-soul or moral intelligence, then died producing our present material world.
Okay, so you see nothing in the language indicates that.

because paul says so both figuratively (eg., light of the world, spiritual understanding, etc.) and explicitly (eg, “be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” Romans 12:2). Apparently he believed that a moral consciousness in the individual can be developed and can grow into something even better.
Sure, but what is so profound about that?

If I may try to bring this back to the OP then if the historical Joshua lived one hundred years before Paul as Jewish tradition holds then he was a simple human being like you and me presumably with a superior moral awareness making him unique in that way. But if a simple human then we must begin to relook at Paul’s letters in that light and in the light of gnostic tenets. That is the what I was emphasizing with this OP. That is, the historical Joshua was a simple human who actually lived 100 years earlier than Paul.
I can agree Jesus was a simple human, and that Paul believed he was a simple human, albeit is a morally superior one. So far we agree. I think Paul believed Jesus was appointed as the messiah, probably when raised.

The irony is that Even when used literally in a narrative the term itself may actually have an esoteric meaning if the narrative itself is written esoterically. For example,

“And behold (Greek: horao) , the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was.” (Matt 2:9)​
If taken literally, allegedly the three magi followed a star in the sky with their eyes to the exact child and house in a city. Given the fact a star could not be followed with the eyes to a specific house and child in a city then what may be referred to using mental perception?
Of course not.

But that does not mean the author did not think it could. The author almost certainly believed the world was flat, and the stars were points of light attached to the firmament. In such a cosmology, a "star" above a specific location becomes plausible.

Or do you think three really were wise men from the east who gave gold to Jesus' parents?

One explanation briefly states that the three kings represent orion’s belt (three eastern stars) pointing directly to the star, Sirius, which appears just over the horizon exactly at summer solstice. The idea being that orions belt, sirius, and the solar sun‘s yearly cycle are syncronized to mark the decreasing and increasing light signifying (not causal) the TOR’s (cypher being the canonical John the Baptist’s) decreasing light and Paul’s (cypher being the canonical Gospel jesus) increasing light. IOW, the baton was passing from one unique moral leader to another, that is, one intellectual sun to another.

“He [Jesus] must increase but I [John the Baptist] must decrease” (John iii. 30).​
He [John the Baptist] was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. (John 5:35)​
Or the author wanted everyone to think John the Baptist was subordinate to Jesus, despite the fact that Jesus was originally a follower of John.

Even when Paul was preaching, there were still those who followed John, despite him being martyred decades earlier. What we read above is Christians spinning it to make it seem Jesus was the superior.

Where does John the Baptist fit your timeline? Presumably you think he came long after Jesus died?
 
Okay, so you see nothing in the language indicates that.


Sure, but what is so profound about that?
Growing a moral consciousness (and applying it for Good) is the most profound event in the universe. Nothing compares to it. I think a religious conscience knows this, believes this, at the core of their being. It is what makes the Buddhas, the Christs, the Mahatmas, the Sages, the Prophets, throughout the history of human civilization. They may not be rich and powerful by material standards but by God’s standards they are kings and queens destined to inherit God’s eternal riches and glory (1). He is just using this material world to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Best of luck! Best wishes.

1) This race of human beings does not do Good for the riches and glory but for the sake of Good itself. This race of human souls receive their reward from doing Good itself. God only adds the eternal part so they may be earn a reward to do Good forever.

I can agree Jesus was a simple human, and that Paul believed he was a simple human, albeit is a morally superior one. So far we agree. I think Paul believed Jesus was appointed as the messiah, probably when raised.


Of course not.

But that does not mean the author did not think it could. The author almost certainly believed the world was flat, and the stars were points of light attached to the firmament. In such a cosmology, a "star" above a specific location becomes plausible.

Or do you think three really were wise men from the east who gave gold to Jesus' parents?


Or the author wanted everyone to think John the Baptist was subordinate to Jesus, despite the fact that Jesus was originally a follower of John.

Even when Paul was preaching, there were still those who followed John, despite him being martyred decades earlier. What we read above is Christians spinning it to make it seem Jesus was the superior.

Where does John the Baptist fit your timeline? Presumably you think he came long after Jesus died?
 
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