Did the (actual, historical) Jesus live in 100 BC? by GRS Mead

The Pixie

Well-known member
Growing a moral consciousness (and applying it for Good) is the most profound event in the universe. Nothing compares to it.
I was responding to "Apparently he believed that a moral consciousness in the individual can be developed and can grow into something even better." That is an on-going process, and something we can all aspire to, and try to engineer in our children.

What you seem to be talking about here is a one-off (per person) event when you gain a moral conscious.

Which is Paul talking about?

I think a religious conscience knows this, believes this, at the core of their being. It is what makes the Buddhas, the Christs, the Mahatmas, the Sages, the Prophets, throughout the history of human civilization. They may not be rich and powerful by material standards but by God’s standards they are kings and queens destined to inherit God’s eternal riches and glory (1). He is just using this material world to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Best of luck! Best wishes.

1) This race of human beings does not do Good for the riches and glory but for the sake of Good itself. This race of human souls receive their reward from doing Good itself. God only adds the eternal part so they may be earn a reward to do Good forever.
So it is not altruism, but for personal gain, where that gain is the reward from God.

Still curious how John the Baptist fits your timeline. Josephus places him squarely in the first century, well after when you are claiming Jesus lived.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
I was responding to "Apparently he believed that a moral consciousness in the individual can be developed and can grow into something even better." That is an on-going process, and something we can all aspire to, and try to engineer in our children.

What you seem to be talking about here is a one-off (per person) event when you gain a moral conscious.

Which is Paul talking about?
there is no difference between an

“on-going process …we can all aspire to, and to engineer in our children”

and

a “per person event” in whom an independent, individual moral consciousness develops.

There is no magical wand or spell that “one-offs” anything. It is a process of growing the mind into right reasoning, moral reasoning, ethics, virtuous living. We start as infants with none of it but have potential to develop it. Some people have an epiphany in life and decide they want to become better or do better after having chosen poorly. Maybe for them it feels like a “one-off event” but no magic is involved, merely a change of direction, aka, “repentance”.

So it is not altruism, but for personal gain, where that gain is the reward from God.
if gaining virtue is a reward, or gift from God then call him “guilty” if you so desire. The whole idea of the soul turning to virtuous living is metaphorically called to be “born” of God. IOW, a gift from God. We humans have been given a “gift” of reason that allows us (ie., our soul) to rise above mere animal impulses. In that sense, we can become like God, aka, sons and daughters of God. And he will not let his children suffer corruption. They are promised an eternal home with him.

Still curious how John the Baptist fits your timeline. Josephus places him squarely in the first century, well after when you are claiming Jesus lived.
Josephus writings were interpolated by later Christians allegedly to create a Jewish source for the historical tradition of the canonical Jesus. Josephus is only a tiny piece of the puzzle. The book in the OP reviews ALL the available evidence (available in the author’s time) in Jewish Talmud and Toldoth legends and surmises that the Jews believed Joshua was an historical figure living around 100 BC who claimed to be a Messianic (anointed by the Spirit) human being.

Read the book for the full analysis.
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Just to follow-up the point in post #6 about Biblical names having meaning which is integral to the Biblical narrative itself, —this from Philo on “The Cherubim.”

All the rest of the human race gives names to things which are different from the things themselves, so that the thing which we see is one thing, but the name which we give it is another; but in the history of Moses the names which he affixes to things are the most conspicuous energies of the things themselves, so that the thing itself is at once of necessity its name, and is in no respect different from the name which is imposed on it.​
The point being that the meaning of names is integral to the story itself. And we fail to appreciate this unless brought to our attention. Simply, the allegorical meaning of the myth is reinforced by the names of things themselves. For example, “YHWH” is not a supernatural god who throws fire from heaven but is being itself, —the meaning of his name! The, “I am”. In our case, in the present world, matter itself. which is why the myth has YHWH “forming” the flesh of animals, to include humans.

“then the YHWH-Elohim FORMED the man of dust from the ground” (Gen. 2:7)​
“Now out of the ground the YHW-Elohim had FORMED every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens” (Gen 2:19)​
This ^^^^ is an example of how Jewish scriptures were interpreted by at least one sect of Jews, namely, the Essenes, two thousand years ago. It is unfortunate that this method of understanding scripture has been lost.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Could the historical Joshua (100 BC) identified in the Jewish traditions and founder of “The Way” which developed into Christianity be one of three enlightened souls predicted to come in the Zoroastrian religion?

It is noteworthy that the theology of Zoroastrianism and the Essenes regarding the end of the present world and a future restoration have many similarities.

I touched on the eschatological expectations of the Essenes found in the Dead Sea Scrolls in post #5. For comparison I will post the eschatological expectations of Zoroastrianism side by side. This merely highlights similar expectations for the sake of curiosity. Obviously, a more in depth comparison is warranted. (Anyone know a good book on the theology of Zoroastrianism?)

This is fascinating to investigate, IMO. Could it be that one of the oldest eastern religions continued on in its different forms until it spread across the western world in its current form of Christianity? If so, then theoretically, the Wise Lord (whether he goes by the name, Ahura Mazda or “the Most high”) has been working continuously within the different civilizations, languages, and forms of religion to bring about his new creation.

Post #5History of zoroastrianism
according to this sect of Jews who developed into Christianity, namely, Essenes, there are ONLY SEVEN stars in the history of humanity who shine so brightly that they are equivalent to the day star at noon in the sky which extinguishes darkness in its place. Apparently, the anointed Joshua was considered by this sect of Judaism to be one of those SEVEN DAY STARS manifesting in his “appointed time.”

IOW, all of human history walks, lives in darkness illuminated by the faintest moral light, ie., “the stars” and “moon”, according to the figurative meaning, EXCEPT when the intellectual sun “Rises” in humanity at seven appointed times (corresponding with the “days” of creation in the Biblical creation myth) when the moral light is the brightest! Presumably, this sect could mark the passing of real time by the appearance of these enlightened souls. This is IMO the biggest secret held by this sect (one of the few secrets actually encrypted in the Dead Sea Scrolls), , the marking of time according to the plan of the Most High God.

This explains why christianity is waiting for the “Last Day.” The anointed Joshua or TOR claimed to be the “anointed one” cutoff in the last half of the “week” of seven days, per Daniel, making him the fifth (5th) Christ on earth. Presuming Paul subsequently was the sixth (6th) “day” of that week, then logically we wait for the “Last Day” (7th) of that week. IOW, we wait for the final moral teacher on earth before the ”new creation.”
Zoroaster in his religion postulated a renovation of the universe, a new dispensation in which the world will become perfect at the last day. ..

Besides this individual salvation there is to be the universal salvation in which the renovators will finish the work of bringing salvation to all human beings. The texts speak of certain great souls, three in number, including the saviour paramount, that will usher in this period.

These are called Saoshyants in the Zoroastrian terminology. The Fravardin Yasht mentions Ukhshyatereta, Ukhshyatnemah, and Astvatereta as the chief renovators. Zarathushtra's own kith and kin, a superman of miraculous powers, born in supernatural manner, will finally descend upon earth to renovate the world. Astvatereta, or the Saoshyant proper, will be immaculately conceived through a virgin called Vispataurvi, or 'the all-triumphant.' He is called Saoshyant because he will salvage the bodily world, and Astvatereta because he will save the bodily creatures from destruction at the hands of the two-footed wicked ones. Astvatereta is reflected in the Gathic expression astvat ashem, ashem being cognate with areta. This Saoshyant par excellence is the most eminent restorer, he is called the friend of Ahura Mazda, the meritorious one, who will bring the mighty work to completion.

“After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.” (Hosea 6:2)

Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was [IS] raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures (Hosea 6:2), and that he is [mentally perceived by Midrash technique] appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve… (1 cor 15:4)​
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Years ago I came across an article apparently written around the same time (1887) when Mead wrote his book titled in the OP. Whereas Mead’s book is a comprehensive, scholarly analysis of Jewish literature which concludes the historical Jesus lived 100 years earlier this article below starts with that conclusion and explains what the “christ” anointing means to an eastern oriented religious conscience, eg, from the perspective of Buddhism. It is another perspective that can help round out what we are dealing with in the same way one may turn an object over in the hand to see it from many different angles.

Now that I have read Meads analysis and can accept his conclusion especially in light of recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls then I could appreciate this article and its more eastern, mystical religious perspective. I especially liked this statement defining what in his opinion a “christian” or christ-man means to the mystic.

The resurrection is the spiritual birth-right of every human being endowed with soul and spirit, whatever his religion may be. Such individual is a christ-man. It applies to those who strive and succeed to live the life and to obtain the naturally ensuing spiritual illumination in blending their personality with their inner divine spirit, ie, the God [rising] within them.​

Just one more bread crumb gathered up on the path to truth whether it be historical or absolute.

Jesus Pandira the historical Christ
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
For those who are new to the book of Daniel and its reference to the coming Messiah that I briefly touched on already (in posts #5 & 24), --to you I wanted to clarify what I meant about how the book of Daniel refers to the historical Joshua identified both in the Talmud and in the Dead Sea Scrolls living 100 years BEFORE the traditional claim of Christianity. It is not really that complicated if you can do basic math.

BUT, to explain what I meant I need to divide the alleged prophesy in the book of Daniel into two ideas, one that is based on science, history, facts, and math; and the other that is based on the interpretation of scripture through the Midras technique. The first idea anyone and everyone can perceive for themselves, the second idea is purely an interpretative meaning, a philosophical idea, a mystical, occult (hidden) meaning of scripture that just happens to be promoted in the Dead Sea Scrolls (therefore, not my opinion alone). And whoever wrote the book of Daniel is IMO correlating these two ideas, ie., showing how history correlates with Jewish interpretation of scripture, specifically, the Essene interpretation of Hebrew scripture. I apologize if this is not clear after I am finished. I am explaining it for the first time so it will be a little rough around the edges.

The alleged prophesy is found in Daniel 9: 24-27 and is divided into two ideas, the historical truth supporting the interpretative meaning of scripture per the Essenes in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Historical facts in Daniel 9:24-26 regarding an anointed one and the destruction of JerusalemDivine hokmah interpretation of Hebrew creation myth, specifically, the "new covenant"
Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that

FROM the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem (see Cyrus cylinder)

TO the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. (see Dead Sea scrolls and the talmud)
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
Holy Spirit establishes the new covenant during the "week [of seven]" "new creation".

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day [Ruach] Elohim finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. (Genesis 2:1)

Paul identifies the author of that "covenant".

"our sufficiency is from God, who has made US sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit." (2 corinthians 3:5)

The prophets of that "new covenant" manifest on their appointed "Days".

Day 1
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4. (King David per the Dead Sea Scrolls)
This alleged prophesy is clearly based on history. Anyone can do the math and calculate that the anointed one dies during the reign of Queen Salome just as the Talmud and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree what happened.

For example,
* Cyrus decrees in 539 BC that conquered people may return to their homelands and worship God how they see fit (see Cyrus cylinder).

* Within "seventy weeks" of years the historical Joshua is martyred who allegedly atones for the sin of its people.

539 BC - 490 years equals 49 B.C.

Given that the Jewish calendars were inaccurate during Hellenistic times (and the Jews knew this) then there is no way the dates can be absolutely accurate to exact solar day and year. There must be a confidence interval, ie. "seventy weeks", in which the event takes place. In this case, the anointed one cutoff occurs during the reign of Queen Salome 76 - 67 BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls explicitly claim this to be true. Moreover, the Talmud supports this claim, although, the Talmud calls him a heretic rather than a true Messianic figure. nevertheless the historical dates, traditional Jewish beliefs, archaeological evidence, all add up! IOW, this is historically true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DAY 5. The "anointed one cutoff" during the reign of Queen Salome (76 - 67 BC)
And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (fulfilled in 70 CE). Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (Daniel 9:26)DAY 6. The return of the "spirit of Joshua" in Paul the apostle 100 years AFTER the historical Joshua
"understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days ["LAST DAYS"]. For the vision is for DAYS yet to come.” (Daniel 10:14)DAY 7. ?? Final moral teacher on earth before the universe is restored.

Does everyone perceive that the "Last Days" of the "new covenant" or "new creation" authored by the Holy Spirit "rising" in humankind is the Days: fifth, sixth, and seventh days of the "week"? And the "anointed one" who was "cutoff" abolished sacrifice in the "last half of the week"?...just as the leader of the Essenes ACTUALLY DID!
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
I discovered another small piece of the puzzle that connects the metaphor of “morning-star” with great souls going all the way back to 200 BC when the Onias family line of high priests administered the Temple.

What?! you say. And Why do we care?

Recall that in post #5 I posited the metaphor of “day-stars” or “morning-stars” being used to represent great souls, unique moral leaders, who illuminate souls just as the sun illuminates the earth. Up to now, the oldest use of that metaphor directly connected to christianity was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, specifically applied to the anointed Yeshua, aka, Jesus Christ, who lived at 100 BC.

That is the “What”; now, the “Why“ we care.

This new, independent piece of the puzzle dates the metaphor up to 200 BC when it was specifically applied to a famous high priest whose family, the Onias family line, is directly connected to the prophets.

Therefore, this metaphor of “morning-star“ can be directly connected in the literature from New Testament canon, through the Dead Sea Scrolls, through the second temple high priests, to the prophets. In practical terms, this historical evidence demonstrates the natural development of christianity over time. Moreover, it is applied to a human. A human! Not to a supernatural being.

Thus, Christianity is NOT a unique, spontaneous event in the first century CE. Rather, it developed naturally from the prophets, to the high priests, to the Essenes, to gnostic christians, to christian orthodoxy. Of course, each successive generation innovated upon the original idea until it became lost into superstitions and myths, —the historizing of the canonical Gospels causing a final break from the Jewish meaning, when a great human soul became distorted into a demi-god.

Without further adieu, the evidence extant up to 200 BC that demonstrates human reason/wisdom found in a human body = the sun hidden by the clouds

Sirach chapter 33​
Why is one DAY more important than another,
when the same sun lights up every day of the year?
By the LORD’s knowledge they are kept distinct;
and he designates the seasons and feasts.
Some he exalts and sanctifies,
and others he lists as ordinary days.

Likewise, [=]
all PEOPLE are of clay,
and from earth humankind was formed
In the fullness of his knowledge the Lord distinguished them,
and he designated their different ways.
Some he blessed and exalted,
and some he sanctified and drew to himself.
Others he cursed and brought low,
and expelled them from their place.

Again, the metaphor “morning-star“ is applied to the high priest at 200 BC, just as it was applied to the anointed Yeshua (aka, Jesus Christ) of 100 BC.


Sirach chapter 50​
Greatest of his family, the glory of his people,
was SIMEON the priest, son of Jochanan,*
In whose time the house of God was renovated,
in whose days the temple was reinforced…

Like a star shining among the clouds,
like the full moon at the festal season;
Like sun shining upon the temple of the King,
like a rainbow appearing in the cloudy sky;

As a side, this information should force us to reevaluate what the following verses may have meant to the original author.

“from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 26:64)​
and

“Behold, he is coming with the clouds,…” (Rev. 1:7)​
and
”Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 thess. 4:17)​
 
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