Disagreement Upon Corrupt Natures

[treeplanter]

You're still not understanding why.
Adam's nature was passed along to us.
Adam's nature was separated from God, cutting him, and subsequently the rest of the human race, off from God.

I understand perfectly well the Christian belief that Adam's nature was passed along to us
"The damage" as you say, "passing from parent to child, down through the ages"

Do you understand, though, that the corrupt nature is inheritable because God consciously and purposefully chose that it be that way?

YHVH needlessly chose that the entire human race should suffer because of something that the 1st man did

 

[docphin5]

I agree that we have what Christian would call a "sinful" nature, but it is not biblical to say we inherited it from the fall from which the entire concept of original sin is derived. Genesis was very specific about what the effect of Adam's disobedience was and a sinful nature was not part of it. The nature to disobey God's will (to sin) was obviously already present in us from creation.

Paul had no scriptural warrant to claim what he did in Romans 5:12.

Unless he was NOT referring to humans at all, but to a pre-existent or arche-typical Adam or “first Adam” who sinned in heaven.

The religious thought of a heavenly pre-existent Man or arche-type was prevalent in and around Paul’s time in the gnostic literature and going back to the Chaldeans.

”From these texts a common pattern of idea emerges, according to which the spiritual component of the human protoplast originated as an image of an archetypal model, a Primal Man who manifested himself as simultaneously one and many. This Primal Man is [associated with] the Son—or the Savior, the Logos, the “Fruit”, or Jesus (the various names are basically just different modalities of the same mediating figure).” (E. Thommassen, The Spiritual Seed, the church of the valentinians, pg 439)

 

[SteveB]

I understand perfectly well the Christian belief that Adam's nature was passed along to us
"The damage" as you say, "passing from parent to child, down through the ages"

Do you understand, though, that the corrupt nature is inheritable because God consciously and purposefully chose that it be that way?

YHVH needlessly chose that the entire human race should suffer because of something that the 1st man did

You continue to BELIEVE that it was needless.

It was absolutely necessary!

Seems pretty clear from your years of description, that anything you don't like, you view as needless.

YHVH consciously and purposely did things the way he did because they were absolutely necessary.

Otherwise he never would have done it.

So, consciously?
Absolutely!
YHVH is infinitely conscious of everything he's done, every single thought we have, and every single word we speak.

Purposely?
Absolutely!
YHVH is not a God of happenstance and accidentally. There are no "oops" in God's workings. There's no "Gee! I didn't see that coming! Nor is there-- " gosh, I must've missed that one."

Jesus said that God knows every hair on our heads, and that not even the most insignificant birds fall to the ground without his awareness.

So purposefully is absolutely necessary.

Thus, every action, every creation, etc.... is an absolute necessity to God.

We may indeed not like it, not appreciate it, not want it to be as it is, but what YHVH does in creating is an absolute necessity!

So, you're going to have to come to terms with this imperative necessity of God's, and decide whether you really want to spend your eternity in the lake of fire because throwing temper tantrums is so effective at getting your way, or, spending your eternity in a paradise where YHVH is constantly glorified and honored by the people who actually want to know him and enjoy Him forever!

As I've said before,

He's worthy, because everything he does is righteous and just. Regardless of whether or not I agree with it.

Don't destroy yourself. It's not worth the long term consequences!

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ!

In 1 Corinthians 13:12 we read

1Co 13:12 WEB For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.

Everyone I've ever met who trust in Jesus and have been reading the bible and learning to follow him for longer than a week have questions. And God knows we have questions.
There are a few passages in Isaiah which invite us to engage YHVH and present our struggles. And while he always answers, sometimes his answer is

WAIT, not yet.

And it's those things that he promises his people that there will come a day when he will answer and explain everything.

The question here becomes,

Can you wait when YHVH says, wait, not yet!?

Come follow Jesus. He's worthy.

 

[5wize]

Unless he was NOT referring to humans at all, but to a pre-existent or arche-typical Adam or “first Adam” who sinned in heaven.

The religious thought of a heavenly pre-existent Man or arche-type was prevalent in and around Paul’s time in the gnostic literature and going back to the Chaldeans.

”From these texts a common pattern of idea emerges, according to which the spiritual component of the human protoplast originated as an image of an archetypal model, a Primal Man who manifested himself as simultaneously one and many. This Primal Man is [associated with] the Son—or the Savior, the Logos, the “Fruit”, or Jesus (the various names are basically just different modalities of the same mediating figure).” (E. Thommassen, The Spiritual Seed, the church of the valentinians, pg 439)

I'm not sure that connects to the thought that man's corrupt nature started at the fall. Seems to be the same issue of a pre-existing propensity, but in some human protoplast.

 

[TeabagSalad]

Sounds like you're throwing a temper tantrum.
By the looks of it, @Dizerner provided a pretty concise description of the human condition.
Adam ate the fruit God told him would result in his death.

That death fundamentally changed his spiritual nature. And that change impacted the entire human race.

THIS is what theologians call original sin.

I have an interesting book about this issue. And because it's so old, the copyright law has released it, and it's VERY inexpensively available.

I'll have to warn you, it's a lengthy read, and is incredibly tedious. Even more so for a guy like you who is constantly throwing temper tantrums at every little thing you don't like.

The title is: Human Nature in its Fourfold State. The author is Thomas Boston. It was originally published in 1811, so some of the language is really dated.

I picked up my copy for my phone for $0.99 from Amazon.


You're still not understanding why.
Adam's nature was passed along to us.
Adam's nature was separated from God, cutting him, and subsequently the rest of the human race, off from God.

Ranting and whining about it isn't going to change anything.

God created us the way he did, and that's it.
We were created in his image and likeness.
Part of that is that we are given choice. Adam's choice was the tree of life or the tree that brought death.
He chose death. In spite of knowing what it would bring.





Being separated from God is what makes sin the result.

I think that the book I mentioned above does an excellent job describing the consequences of our being spiritually dead because of our sin. Ephesians 2:1.

It's not a matter of being compelled to sin at least once in our lives...
It's that we're spiritually dead and as such, incapable of doing anything BUT sin.


Ever gone to a funeral?
Ever tried sticking the guy in the casket with a pin, or something sharp?
Did they move, twitch, or flinch?
Ever tried beating a dead animal to get them to move/twitch/flinch?

In case you missed it.... dead people are completely incapable of doing anything. Period.
In like manner, the only way humans can do anything spiritual is by God's Word and the power of the Holy Spirit.
It's why we read in 1 Corinthians 1, that the preaching of the cross is the power of God to salvation.
It's why we read in Isaiah 55 that God's Word will achieve the purpose for which God gave it.

God empowers his Word to give us life. We connect with him when we believe in Jesus.


Nope.

This is exactly why I asked you before what you're trying to impose on it.

You're doing yourself more harm than good here by twisting the truth to fit your biases.

God created Adam and Eve.
As we read in Amos, God wants godly offspring.
So he created humans to inherit their parent's DNA.
When Adam died, his humanity was irrevocably damaged.

That damage was passed from parent to child, down through the ages.

God has explicitly provided us with a solution that requires Him and his Word to initiate the solution, and sustain it throughout the rest of our lives on earth.

Failure to engage him on his terms results in retaining the old nature and upon our physical death, we will remain separated from God throughout all eternity.

Those who do engage God on his terms results in our being spiritually regenerated and made spiritually alive. This newly formed nature connects us with God.

Jesus described it in John 3 as being "born again."

It's described in a number of ways throughout the entire bible.

For me, the best description is given in Ezekiel 36:25-27.

In 1 Peter 1, we're born again by God's Word which is eternal.

In Romans 3-8, it's broken into great detail.

It's initialized by trusting Jesus and God's Word.
Once we're regenerated, we're instructed to take on a new mindset and pattern of thinking, which agrees with God's Word.
God gives us his Holy Spirit as a guarantor of our new birth, and to ensure we can learn to understand and live out the life of Jesus in our lives.

Only those who place their trust in Jesus are able to know and experience God in their lives.

No other religious beliefs possess the power to restore our connection between us and God.

Couple of quick questions for you Steve, first one only requires a yes or no answer.

1) Do you believe you are a terrible person who deserves to be punished? (Yes or No).

2) If you answered yes to question 1, specifically, what have you done that makes you deserve being punished?

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Do you believe that each and every human being - past, present, and future {Jesus Christ notwithstanding} - is compelled, inevitably, to sin at least once?

Impelled, not necessarily compelled.

 

[docphin5]

I'm not sure that connects to the thought that man's corrupt nature started at the fall. Seems to be the same issue of a pre-existing propensity, but in some human protoplast.

It is because the “fall” of that pre-existant man in heaven caused a split in heaven, one part, the spirit-nature, or “body of Christ”, “falling” into materiality, aka, suffering and death, the other part, its moral sense or Wisdom staying in heaven. It is highly speculative, nevertheless, the theological cause of matter circulating in religious thought that Thommassen says can be found in the Neo-platonic literature around 200 BC. I think it might be in the Dead Sea scrolls (up to 200 BC) as well in its earliest stage of development in Jewish religious thought. Were these different religious/philosophical communities sharing ideas? I don’t know, Possibly.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Do you understand, though, that the corrupt nature is inheritable because God consciously and purposefully chose that it be that way?

Then why can't you provide scripture for that?

 

[SteveB]

No, it's not.

It's to deny that we are inherently bad.


Not the same thing.

In talking with people about the goodness of God, Jesus said

Mat 7:7-12 WEB 7 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or who is there among you who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 Therefore, whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

And in Luke,

Luk 11:9-13 WEB 9 “I tell you, keep asking, and it will be given you. Keep seeking, and you will find. Keep knocking, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. 11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he won’t give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, he won’t give him a scorpion, will he? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?”

The idea of original sin is in the bible. Jesus acknowledged the importance of recognizing ourselves from God's perspective.

We are evil.

In my perspective the question then becomes...

Ok. What does Jesus mean when he says that?

As I stated in my initial post, #16

Post in thread 'Disagreement Upon Corrupt Natures' https://forums.carm.org/threads/disagreement-upon-corrupt-natures.10815/post-822910

We are spiritually dead because we have inherited the sin of Adam, which opens the door to our committing sin ourselves and therefore we are culpable for our own actions.

This is why we are evil.

You don't have to teach a child to do wrong.

Children lie from a pretty early age.

Ask them why they did a certain act, and justifications abound as to why it was the "not me" gremlin, or their sibling or the pet, or a series of "I don't knows", etc....

Sin is inherently a part of our nature.

 

[SteveB]

Couple of quick questions for you Steve, first one only requires a yes or no answer.

1) Do you believe you are a terrible person who deserves to be punished? (Yes or No).

I believe that I've violated the law of God and as we read he is just and I will one day die, and give an account to him for every single word I've spoken, written, every action I should have done and should not have done, and every thought.

As we read,

Heb 4:13 WEB There is no creature that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him to whom we must give an account.

Heb 9:27 WEB Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,

2) If you answered yes to question 1, specifically, what have you done that makes you deserve being punished?

I've violated every one of the 10 commandments to one degree or another.

The one's on adultery and murder, Jesus took it beyond the actual physical actions and made it clear that adultery can be done simply by looking at another person as an object of sexual pleasure.
Mat 5:28 WEB but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.


The same with murder. It's an action that starts in the heart, and words can be murderous.

Mat 5:21-22 WEB 21 “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder;’ and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

I've long found it curious that Jesus said

Mat 15:19 WEB For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies.

Sin is born in the human heart.

James states,

Jas 1:12-15 WEB 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord promised to those who love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death.

 

[TeabagSalad]

I believe that I've violated the law of God and as we read he is just and I will one day die, and give an account to him for every single word I've spoken, written, every action I should have done and should not have done, and every thought.

As we read,

Heb 4:13 WEB There is no creature that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him to whom we must give an account.

Heb 9:27 WEB Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,


I've violated every one of the 10 commandments to one degree or another.

The one's on adultery and murder, Jesus took it beyond the actual physical actions and made it clear that adultery can be done simply by looking at another person as an object of sexual pleasure.
Mat 5:28 WEB but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.


The same with murder. It's an action that starts in the heart, and words can be murderous.

Mat 5:21-22 WEB 21 “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder;’ and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

I've long found it curious that Jesus said

Mat 15:19 WEB For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies.

Sin is born in the human heart.

James states,

Jas 1:12-15 WEB 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord promised to those who love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death.

Sigh. It really isn't worth trying to engage you in conversation. All you want to do is preach - you can't even answer a simple yes/no question without going off on some tangent.

Now, shall we try again?

Do you believe you are a terrible person who deserves to be punished? (Yes or No).

 

[treeplanter]

It was absolutely necessary!

It was absolutely necessary that YHVH unfairly screw us over from birth?
To what end?

So that He could then swoop down and save us?
And all so that you would then praise and glorify His Holy Name?

We may indeed not like it, not appreciate it, not want it to be as it is, but what YHVH does in creating is an absolute necessity!

This is exactly what I am talking about when I say that you don't think for yourself, Steve

Even though you know in your heart of hearts that it is immoral to inflict a needless harm upon another, you suppress your own better judgement and automatically insist that it is good and righteous just because it is YHVH who is inflicting the needless harm

So, you're going to have to come to terms with this imperative necessity of God's, and decide whether you really want to spend your eternity in the lake of fire because throwing temper tantrums is so effective at getting your way, or, spending your eternity in a paradise where YHVH is constantly glorified and honored by the people who actually want to know him and enjoy Him forever!

And this is precisely why I say that you are bereft of integrity

You're willing to call that which is evil, good, in exchange for eternal life
I, however, am not
I value doing what is right above and beyond saving my own skin

Although I do not relish the prospect of going to Hell, I will go knowing that I am in the right

Everyone I've ever met who trust in Jesus and have been reading the bible and learning to follow him for longer than a week have questions. And God knows we have questions.
There are a few passages in Isaiah which invite us to engage YHVH and present our struggles. And while he always answers, sometimes his answer is

WAIT, not yet.

And it's those things that he promises his people that there will come a day when he will answer and explain everything.

You frequently allude to your education and the professors who taught you

Upon asking for an explanation, did any of them ever tell you:
"I have the answer, but you'll just have to trust me for now - I'll fill you in later"?

I think not, Steve

Bottom line is this:
If YHVH wants me to trust Him then He is going to have to explain Himself

It's silly, senseless, and, yes, NEEDLESS to favor faith over investigation and verification

 

[SteveB]

Sigh. It really isn't worth trying to engage you in conversation. All you want to do is preach - you can't even answer a simple yes/no question without going off on some tangent.

Now, shall we try again?

Do you believe you are a terrible person who deserves to be punished? (Yes or No).

So, you're telling me you don't actually know how to read?

I believe that I've violated the law of God.

The bible clearly stated that I deserve to be punished for my sin.

 

[treeplanter]

Impelled, not necessarily compelled.

NT verse
Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"

Over 100 BILLION human beings to have walked the earth and not a single one {apart from Jesus} has ever managed to live a sinless life?

And this isn't something compelled?????

 

[treeplanter]

Then why can't you provide scripture for that?

The whole of scripture, itself, testifies to the fact that God is large and in charge

 

[stiggy wiggy]

NT verse
Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"

AMEN! That includes you. What are you doing about it other than whining?

Over 100 BILLION human beings to have walked the earth and not a single one {apart from Jesus} has ever managed to live a sinless life?

Correct.

And this isn't something compelled?????

Correct. No one makes us sin. There are no master programmers behind the scene, pushing buttons. We are not puppets with some mystical entity's hand up our butts. We sin because we choose to.

 

[TeabagSalad]

So, you're telling me you don't actually know how to read?

I believe that I've violated the law of God.

The bible clearly stated that I deserve to be punished for my sin.

Well, you do seem to be having trouble answering a simple yes/no question.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

The whole of scripture, itself,

The you should be able to provide at least one NT verse to support you belief that Jesus DECIDED to make us sin. Whatcha got?

 

[SteveB]

It was absolutely necessary that YHVH unfairly screw us over from birth?
To what end?

??‍


You may know how to read, but your skills at understanding really need help.

It's written,

Gen 1:26-27 WEB 26 God said, “Let’s make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in his own image. In God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 1:31 WEB God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

For whatever reason he chose to do so, the result of his creating Adam and Eve was VERY GOOD.

We see in Deuteronomy 29:29, and 1 Corinthians 13:12 that he's kept certain information about his work in creation back from us.

So, why? I haven't learned why yet. It'll be one of those things I'll probably learn in eternity.

So that He could then swoop down and save us?

Perhaps.

And all so that you would then praise and glorify His Holy Name?

Sure. I'd much rather spend my eternity giving thanks and expressing gratitude in paradise, than whining and complaining while suffering agony because I was stupid.

This is exactly what I am talking about when I say that you don't think for yourself, Steve

Sounds like your problem is that you don't like the way I actually want to spend my life.
You're just going to have to grow up and get over yourself.

I don't want to see you spend your eternity in misery and agony and anguish all because you're afraid of the truth of Jesus, but when it comes to the way I choose to live my life, you don't get to whine about it and expect to be taken seriously.

Even though you know in your heart of hearts that it is immoral to inflict a needless harm upon another, you suppress your own better judgement and automatically insist that it is good and righteous just because it is YHVH who is inflicting the needless harm

Sucks to not be able to control and manipulate others to live as you want them to, doesn't it.

You know what I call that?
A tyrannical whiner that can't get their own way. A spoiled child who is throwing temper tantrums and conniption fits!

And this is precisely why I say that you are bereft of integrity

Wow.... you believe....
You believe that your opinions carry a rat's tail gnats weight in my book?
???????????‍
Dude! You seriously need mental health support.
You think far too highly of yourself and your opinions.
In fact, this is what the bible describes as pride.
You are exalting your own thinking over the Truth of YHVH and Jesus.

You're not worth throwing my eternity away.

You're willing to call that which is evil, good, in exchange for eternal life

Actually, I call what YOU THINK is evil, good, because it's the epitome of Good, Righteous, Just, and True.
Which then goes to demonstrate that it's you who has chosen to call that which is evil, good, and good evil.
Further demonstrating that the bible is true.

Isa 5:18-21 WEB 18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, and wickedness as with cart rope, 19 who say, “Let him make haste, let him hasten his work, that we may see it; let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, that we may know it!” 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

I, however, am not
I value doing what is right above and beyond saving my own skin

You value what is right in your own opinions.

Thus, further demonstrating that the bible is true.

Isa 5:21 WEB Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Although I do not relish the prospect of going to Hell, I will go knowing that I am in the right

Nope. You are guilty of the same thing as the devil. He wanted to be better than God, who created him as a beautiful creature. He had far too high an estimation of his own power, beauty and splendor. As a result, he was cast down to hell.

You frequently allude to your education and the professors who taught you

Upon asking for an explanation, did any of them ever tell you:
"I have the answer, but you'll just have to trust me for now - I'll fill you in later"?

I think not, Steve

Actually, they have. With the caveat- you haven't come far enough in your education to understand the answer and why it's true. So, just be patient and when you get to that point in your learning, I'll remind you and see if you understand yet.

Bottom line is this:
If YHVH wants me to trust Him then He is going to have to explain Himself

And yet you refuse to engage him on his terms.
So, just how do you think it's going to happen?
You keep yelling at him, and he's trying to get you to stop yelling so he can talk with you about it.

It's silly, senseless, and, yes, NEEDLESS to favor faith over investigation and verification

And yet you have refused to do either.
Seems like the silly, senseless and needless are on you. Not God.

 

[SteveB]

Well, you do seem to be having trouble answering a simple yes/no question.

Why do you have a problem recognizing when not yes/no is important?
Not all questions are able to be answered yes/no.

But, you're obviously having a problem with simply thinking, so the answer is no.