Disagreement Upon Corrupt Natures

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Correct. No one makes us sin. There are no master programmers behind the scene, pushing buttons. We are not puppets with some mystical entity's hand up our butts. We sin because we choose to.
Mmm…scripture suggests otherwise

1 Kings 22:23 " And now, behold, YHWH has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours,..”
 
Correct. No one makes us sin. There are no master programmers behind the scene, pushing buttons. We are not puppets with some mystical entity's hand up our butts. We sin because we choose to.
Hilarious - you think that out of a 100 billion+ not one of us {sans Jesus} has ever chosen to live a sinless life - even though that choice is available to us

On a side note, there's a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing...
 
The you should be able to provide at least one NT verse to support you belief that Jesus DECIDED to make us sin. Whatcha got?
Just like scripture makes clear that computer fraud is a sin WITHOUT ever mentioning computer fraud - scripture also makes clear that it was YHVH/Jesus Christ who inflicted, upon humanity, a corrupt nature inevitably compelling sin even though it is never explicitly stated
 
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Hilarious - you think that out of a 100 billion+ not one of us {sans Jesus} has ever chosen to live a sinless life - even though that choice is available to us

On a side note, there's a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing...
We have one in Manhattan Nevada for pennies on the dollar that you would clearly want.
 
The you should be able to provide at least one NT verse to support you belief that Jesus DECIDED to make us sin. Whatcha got?
It's found in the same place as the scripture condemning abortion, ruling slavery is bad m'kay, and that you shouldn't try to impregnate your daughters. Let's not forget the scripture showing that God is three beings in one.
 
Here is the question{s} posed to you:

It was absolutely necessary that YHVH unfairly screw us over from birth?
To what end?
So that He could then swoop down and save us?

Your response:
"Perhaps"

Now, kindly explain how it is righteous and just to consciously and purposefully inflict harm upon someone just so that you can then offer to save him/her from the harm that you, yourself, are causing?


PS
A response of "everything that God does is automatically righteous and just" won't cut it, Steve
 
Here is the question{s} posed to you:

It was absolutely necessary that YHVH unfairly screw us over from birth?
Is it absolutely necessary for you to commit suicide when a solution readily available?
The problem here is that you have previously decided that your opinions alone are the truth.
What YHVH does is absolutely necessary.
Your belief that his necessary creation is unfair and has screwed you over is what's wrong.
So, why are you believing that God is unfair and has screwed you?

To what end?
Well, since your question is based on lies, this is an invalid, baseless question.

So that He could then swoop down and save us?

Your response:
"Perhaps"
And?
Now, kindly explain how it is righteous and just to consciously and purposefully inflict harm upon someone just so that you can then offer to save him/her from the harm that you, yourself, are causing?
If after spending years seeking to save you from committing suicide, and you finally succeed in destroying yourself, why would my actions of seeking to help you is unjust and unrighteous?

You're bringing your own misery and agony and anguish on yourself.



PS
A response of "everything that God does is automatically righteous and just" won't cut it, Steve
Well, then perhaps you should stop believing lies, and start learning the truth.

I answered your questions now answer the questions I asked in this post.
 
I answered your questions now answer the questions I asked in this post.
No, Steve - as always, you did NOT answer my question!

The question, again, is this:

How it is righteous and just to consciously and purposefully inflict harm upon someone just so that you can then offer to save him/her from the harm that you, yourself, are causing?


While you're thinking about that, I'll go ahead and answer your questions!
Unlike you, I have no problem doing so

You:
Is it absolutely necessary for you to commit suicide when a solution readily available?

Me:
Yes
And the reason why is because I value my integrity above and beyond saving my skin


You:
So, why are you believing that God is unfair and has screwed you?

Me:
Because, in my opinion, it is immoral, as a response to one man's actions, to inflict, upon an entire race, a corrupt nature inevitably compelling sin


You:
If after spending years seeking to save you from committing suicide, and you finally succeed in destroying yourself, why would my actions of seeking to help you is unjust and unrighteous?

Me:
This is an unintelligible question...

Are you asking why I would consider YOU unjust and unrighteous for trying to prevent me from destroying myself?
I wouldn't!

Are you asking why I would consider YHVH unjust and unrighteous for trying to prevent me from destroying myself?
I don't!

The reason I consider YHVH unjust and unrighteous is because He consciously and purposefully condemned me, from birth, and did so because of something that somebody else did!

That He then offers a solution to the problem that He caused is of little consolation to me


Did I miss any of your questions, Steve?
See how easy it is to address questions?
How come you can't do the same??
 
The reason I consider YHVH unjust and unrighteous is because He consciously and purposefully condemned me, from birth, and did so because of something that somebody else did!

That He then offers a solution to the problem that He caused is of little consolation to me

This is the real Gospel.

Don't let any "Christian," tell you otherwise, search and pray over Scripture for yourself.

I believe they can still be saved denying half of the Gospel, because they do trust in Christ to suffer for their sins, and that's enough.
 
Mmm…scripture suggests otherwise

1 Kings 22:23 " And now, behold, YHWH has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours,..”

Mmm..... But I am not a prophet. If I tried to excuse my own sin that way, I would be denying the NEW testament verse that

After desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” (James 1:15)

as well a s many other NEW Testament verses telling us that WE are responsible for our sins. Besides, read the OLD Testament verse you gave in context. A "deceiving spirit" had in the previous verse (23) volunteered for permission to make the ALREADY SINFUL prophets to speak deception for a particular cause. Read the entire chapter. To extrapolate from that one peculiar incident to a universal belief that God is responsible for our own sin will undoubtedly not hold much water in our defense at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
 
Hilarious - you think that out of a 100 billion+ not one of us {sans Jesus} has ever chosen to live a sinless life

Who said no one has? I can CHOOSE to take a taxi to Neptune, but that hardly means I can. I can choose to vote for Rutherford B. Hayes by checking his name for President in 2024 , but that doesn't mean he'll be on the ballot.

On a side note, there's a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing...

Did you make that up?

Originality just ain't your thang, is it?
 
Just like scripture makes clear that computer fraud is a sin WITHOUT ever mentioning computer fraud -

So you don't think computer fraud is theft? Like I said earlier, that is as dumb as defending matricide because scripture doesn't specifically condemn killing your mother.


scripture also makes clear that it was YHVH/Jesus Christ who inflicted, upon humanity, a corrupt nature inevitably compelling sin even though it is never explicitly stated

Where? Cough up that NT verse, little man.
 
It's found in the same place as the scripture condemning abortion,

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

ruling slavery

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

You know anyone who wants to be enslaved?

......m'kay,

Barf.

and that you shouldn't try to impregnate your daughters.

See above. Know any girls who want their sons or daughters to be their siblings?

Let's not forget the scripture showing that God is three beings in one.

And ....... Where did i say it did?
 
It is because the “fall” of that pre-existant man in heaven caused a split in heaven, one part, the spirit-nature, or “body of Christ”, “falling” into materiality, aka, suffering and death, the other part, its moral sense or Wisdom staying in heaven. It is highly speculative, nevertheless, the theological cause of matter circulating in religious thought that Thommassen says can be found in the Neo-platonic literature around 200 BC. I think it might be in the Dead Sea scrolls (up to 200 BC) as well in its earliest stage of development in Jewish religious thought. Were these different religious/philosophical communities sharing ideas? I don’t know, Possibly.
But the issue here seems to be whether our propensity to be bad started at the fall. It doesn't make sense that we sinned before sin was brought into the world by our sin.
 
Who said no one has?

I can CHOOSE to take a taxi to Neptune, but that hardly means I can. I can choose to vote for Rutherford B. Hayes by checking his name for President in 2024 , but that doesn't mean he'll be on the ballot.
Oh, so you think some DID choose to live sinless lives, heh

Moronic!

If some did choose to live sinless lives and still failed, nonetheless, to do so - why do you think that is?

Answer:
It's because YHVH/Jesus Christ fated us with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin

You lose, stiggy
 
So you don't think computer fraud is theft?
Are you an idiot?

Where did I ever say that computer fraud isn't theft?

Scripture makes clear that computer fraud is a sin/theft

EVEN THOUGH COMPUTER FRAUD IS NEVER MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE

Likewise

Scripture makes clear that YHVH/Jesus Christ is responsible for our corrupted nature

EVEN THOUGH IT IS NEVER EXPLICITLY STATED IN THE BIBLE
 
Oh, so you think some DID choose to live sinless lives,

Why would you claim I think that, since I never said anything remotely similar to that?


No, I would say imbecilic, since as I recall, I think "imbecile" falls lower on the Stanford Binet IQ scale than "moron." But why WOULD you say something which you seem to know is reflective of your low IQ?

If some did choose to live sinless lives and still failed, nonetheless, to do so - why do you think that is?

I'm going out on a limb here and attribute it to the fact that they sinned.

Answer:
It's because YHVH/Jesus Christ fated us with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin

No. Declarative statements won't cut it here. But I'm pretty patient. I'll check periodically to see if you're ever able to produce even one NT verse to back that up.

You lose, stiggy.

No, it doesn't work that way. See, you're a participant in this discussion we're having. It's like seeing Gerry Cooney, instead of a referee, stopping a fight with Ali, while getting pummeled and then raising his arms in "victory." Comical.

Are you an idiot?

You just implied I was a moron. Make up your mind.

Here:


Scripture makes clear that computer fraud is a sin/theft

EVEN THOUGH COMPUTER FRAUD IS NEVER MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE

Correct, because theft is. Took you long enough, but of course I won't brag too much about having told you that already. Glad to educate you.

Likewise

Scripture makes clear that YHVH/Jesus Christ is responsible for our corrupted nature

EVEN THOUGH IT IS NEVER EXPLICITLY STATED IN THE BIBLE

Where does it say that? Like I said earlier, I can wait all year.
 
I'll check periodically to see if you're ever able to produce even one NT verse to back that up.
Let's see that NT verse stating that God did NOT consciously and purposefully afflict us with corrupt natures inevitably compelling sin

Until you provide said verse, the logical extrapolation of scripture is that our natures - like every other aspect of creation - is by design of the Creator
 
But the issue here seems to be whether our propensity to be bad started at the fall. It doesn't make sense that we sinned before sin was brought into the world by our sin.
That is my point. The ”fall” that resulted in a corrupted sinful nature is not due to humans. You astutely observed that we have a sinful nature but that

“Genesis was very specific about what the effect of Adam's disobedience was and a sinful nature was not part of it.”

You presumed that Paul was referring to the “original sin” of humans probably since that is what we were all taught. I thought that for the longest time too until I investigated gnostic literature and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Paul was probably not talking about a human Adam in Romans 5:12 if there there was conceptualized pre-existent Man in heaven who served as the model for the human protoplast, according to Thommassen.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man,” (Romans 5:12)

is NOT human Adam BUT the human arche-type in heaven who sinned. For Paul adds,

Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” (V 14)

Humans are not the type or model but the image of that model. IOW, we sin because the model in heaven sinned.

What does that have to do with human sinful nature?

In their conception, the arche-type man who sinned in heaven (the original sin) divided into two parts or natures. One nature, the substance of his spiritual body (i.e. light) transmuted into matter from which the entire material cosmos resulted. Therefore, according to their conception, our entire material world is the spoiled nature of a divine heavenly Man who sinned, the original sin. All of Christian doctrines were based on that conception.

For example, the devil and his demons temptations are associated with the flesh of humans (Gal 5:19, Acts 5:3, 1 thess 3:5). Jesus is described casting them out. A lot of the sayings in the New Testament speak of this material world opposed to the Spirit of God. “I am not of this world”, “Do not love the things of this world”, etc. because they perceived its source from a fallen angel who they also called the “first Adam” or pre-existent Man.
 
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