Disagreement Upon Corrupt Natures

Let's see that NT verse stating that God did NOT consciously and purposefully afflict us with corrupt natures inevitably compelling sin

That's some humorous logic. So since I can't provide a verse stating that Moses did NOT do a double back flip when descending Moon Sinai, THEREFORE Moses did a double back flip when descending Mount Sinai?

OK. I've quit laughing. Now back to your task you've been avoiding since you concocted this unfortunate OP:

Provide an NT verse stating that Jesus consciously and purposefully afflicted us with corrupt natures inevitably compelling sin.
 
Let's see that NT verse stating that God did NOT consciously and purposefully afflict us with corrupt natures inevitably compelling sin

Until you provide said verse, the logical extrapolation of scripture is that our natures - like every other aspect of creation - is by design of the Creator
"Everything happens according to my god's will."

Including the corruption of our natures.
Good night.
 
No, Steve - as always, you did NOT answer my question!

The question, again, is this:

How it is righteous and just to consciously and purposefully inflict harm upon someone just so that you can then offer to save him/her from the harm that you, yourself, are causing?

That's a different question. Until you answer mine, you're not going to get this one answered.

Your question was:
It was absolutely necessary that YHVH unfairly screw us over from birth?

Is it absolutely necessary for you to commit suicide when a solution readily available?
The problem here is that you have previously decided that your opinions alone are the truth.
What YHVH does is absolutely necessary.

Your belief that his necessary creation is unfair and has screwed you over is what's wrong.


So, why are you believing that God is unfair and has screwed you?

While you're thinking about that, I'll go ahead and answer your questions!
Unlike you, I have no problem doing so

You:
Is it absolutely necessary for you to commit suicide when a solution readily available?

Me:
Yes
And the reason why is because I value my integrity above and beyond saving my skin
Sad.
You:
So, why are you believing that God is unfair and has screwed you?

Me:
Because, in my opinion, it is immoral, as a response to one man's actions, to inflict, upon an entire race, a corrupt nature inevitably compelling sin
Yet he didn't inflict it.
He gave it, as a gift, because it was the very best way to create human beings.

Furthermore, if God actually wanted to destroy your life, he would have done it already. The fact that you are still alive is proof he loves you.
You:
If after spending years seeking to save you from committing suicide, and you finally succeed in destroying yourself, why would my actions of seeking to help you is unjust and unrighteous?

Me:
This is an unintelligible question...
It's a reversal of your question.
So, if you don't understand it, then you should consider that your question is unintelligible.

Are you asking why I would consider YOU unjust and unrighteous for trying to prevent me from destroying myself?
I wouldn't!
Actually, you are.
You keep telling me that I'm wrong for believing God over you, telling me that I'm sacrificing my integrity to receive the salvation, love, friendship and forgiveness of Jesus.
So, you have repeatedly stated that I am unjust and unrighteous for doing so.
I've spent the past nearly two years now telling you that you are committing suicide in the most gruesome manner possible and you have repeatedly maligned me for my daily warnings, seeking to save you from experiencing the consequences of your sin.
So, you either don't actually know what you're doing or you do know, and as such, are a fraud.
Are you asking why I would consider YHVH unjust and unrighteous for trying to prevent me from destroying myself?
I don't!
According to numerous other posts of your, many of which have been removed from the forum, because they were so utterly malicious and hateful towards YHVH, you do indeed treat him as though he was unrighteous and unjust for seeking to save you from destroying yourself.
You've called him a monster, and immoral. You've repeatedly stated that you are more righteous than he is, and believe that the entire human race is more righteous than he is.
So, again, you either don't actually know what you're talking about, or you know exactly what you're talking about and as you've repeatedly stated, understand exactly what the issues are, making you a fraud, and deceiver, whose sole goal is to convert people into sons of hell, worse than you.


The reason I consider YHVH unjust and unrighteous is because He consciously and purposefully condemned me, from birth, and did so because of something that somebody else did!
Nope. You chose your sin all by yourself. Nobody ever stuck a gun to your head, tied you up, and forced you to commit sin.
And as such, the only escape that's available is Jesus Christ. And here you've been for years, maligning, slandering, blaming, and falsely accusing the only person who has the power and authority to save you.
So. You have perfectly treated, and maligned YHVH as unrighteous and unjust.

That He then offers a solution to the problem that He caused is of little consolation to me
Because you are daily choosing to believe lies, further damning yourself.
It seems like the problem here is that you want to be righteous without any help from YHVH, excluding yourself from knowing YHVH and Jesus.
There's a problem with this because Jesus describes a group of people who are convinced they are righteous, but don't actually know God.
And what's worse is that when they come to him at the end, Jesus said to them, depart from me you who practice iniquity, for I never knew you.
And their response was one of surprise.
But, we preached in your name, we cast out demons and.... in your name...

Furthermore, Jesus describes a wedding feast, where all kinds of people are invited and handed special wedding attire. One guy appears to be wandering through the wedding hall and happens on the king, who is also wandering the hall.
The king noticed that the guy didn't have the attire on, and asked- how come you don't have the proper attire on? How did you get in here? The guy was speechless and the king called to his guards, and had the man booted out of the wedding hall.

Your complaint, and gripes about being forced to sin are groundless, and aren't going to garner you any favors with YHVH for being self-righteous.

We who come to Jesus do so because we've come to recognize that no matter how good we believe ourselves to be, it's not enough.

Even Paul describes himself in Philippians 3 as perfect regarding adherence to the law of God. He had checked all the necessary features to have actually earned his right to know God.
Born in a household of God's family.
Had the best education, all the right stuff....
He learned at a certain point that he did not know God. He was like the under-dressed guy in the wedding hall.
He was dressed. He just didn't have the right attire, which had been defined, and provided by the king as the proper wedding attire.
So, even if you actually could be righteous by yourself, you have already excluded yourself by the blasphemous language you have accused Him with.
I.e., you have shot yourself in the face, and then blamed others for your own actions against yourself.
Did I miss any of your questions, Steve?
See how easy it is to address questions?
How come you can't do the same??
It's not a problem for me at all.
The problem is that you continue to reject the answers I give you and repeatedly tell me I'm wrong because my answers don't agree with your preconceived opinions and biases.

You're stuck in a prison cell of your own concoction and all attempts to free you have met with some seriously malicious responses from you.

Trying to help you get free from your hatred is like trying to release a rabid pit bull or rottweiler from a cage, but you keep attacking me, and it's preventing me from being able to open your cage door.
 
That is my point. The ”fall” that resulted in a corrupted sinful nature is not due to humans. You astutely observed that we have a sinful nature but that

“Genesis was very specific about what the effect of Adam's disobedience was and a sinful nature was not part of it.”

You presumed that Paul was referring to the “original sin” of humans probably since that is what we were all taught. I thought that for the longest time too until I investigated gnostic literature and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Paul was probably not talking about a human Adam in Romans 5:12 if there there was conceptualized pre-existent Man in heaven who served as the model for the human protoplast, according to Thommassen.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man,” (Romans 5:12)

is NOT human Adam BUT the human arche-type in heaven who sinned. For Paul adds,

Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” (V 14)

Humans are not the type or model but the image of that model. IOW, we sin because the model in heaven sinned.

What does that have to do with human sinful nature?

In their conception, the arche-type man who sinned in heaven (the original sin) divided into two parts or natures. One nature, the substance of his spiritual body (i.e. light) transmuted into matter from which the entire material cosmos resulted. Therefore, according to their conception, our entire material world is the spoiled nature of a divine heavenly Man who sinned, the original sin. All of Christian doctrines were based on that conception.

For example, the devil and his demons temptations are associated with the flesh of humans (Gal 5:19, Acts 5:3, 1 thess 3:5). Jesus is described casting them out. A lot of the sayings in the New Testament speak of this material world opposed to the Spirit of God. “I am not of this world”, “Do not love the things of this world”, etc. because they perceived its source from a fallen angel who they also called the “first Adam” or pre-existent Man.
Ahhh. Now I get it. That model would make sense.
 
Steve, you have acknowledged that we possess corrupted natures that inevitably compel sin

Corruption is not a naturally inheritable trait of the collective nature of a race or species
Nor is it a naturally inheritable trait of one's unique individual nature

If not by a conscious and purposeful choice made by YHVH, where do you think that our absolute inability to ever transcend our natures actually comes from?
 
Steve, you have acknowledged that we possess corrupted natures that inevitably compel sin

Corruption is not a naturally inheritable trait of the collective nature of a race or species
Nor is it a naturally inheritable trait of one's unique individual nature
Not in your way of thinking, which has repeatedly demonstrated your thinking flawed, corrupted and wrong.

Adam's sin is the first problem.
You have inherited the dead spirit, cut off from God.
This has resulted in you committing your very own sin. Nobody has ever forced you to violate the expressly stated Law of God. You did it all by yourself without any help from any other person.
Some you've committed with great gusto, and pride, knowing full well that it will result in you committing suicide in the most gruesome way possible.


If not by a conscious and purposeful choice made by YHVH, where do you think that our absolute inability to ever transcend our natures actually comes from?
Each and every single one of us, as humans.

We commit whatever our respective flavors of sin are, and we do it proudly, perfectly and with the same level of excitement that we would be cheering on our favorite sports teams.

We don't need any help. We can do it ourselves.

This is exactly why the new birth is so important.

YHVH recreates a new heart, a new Spirit, removes the old heart of flesh and gives us a new heart of flesh.
He then gives us his Holy Spirit to cause us to live in a manner that honors him.

But it's completely impossible apart from God's Spirit.

As we read in Romans 8.

Rom 8:4 WEB that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 WEB because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God, for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.

Only by focusing our thinking on spiritual things are we able to fully satisfy the righteous ordinances of God's Law.

Rom 8:5 WEB For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
 
Ahhh. Now I get it. That model would make sense.
For the loonngest time (years) that hung me up. If human Adam was the model for Son of God then that put YHWH in the position of God, per the type. Logically it would look like this.

YHWH forms humans, just as God produces Son of God

However, I knew YHWH was an imperfect divine being based on scripture and the historical development of Judeo-Christianity. They all agree YHWH is the demi-urge or Adversary or imperfect entity.

Not till I came across the historical conception of the preexistent Man did the types fit in their logical place.

”The El” or “true God” forms heavenly Son of God, namely, preexistent Adam, in heaven just as the Son of God produces humans in his image, aka, human Adam.

The problem is that the Son of God separated from Wisdom and spoiled his spirit-nature. Maybe it is the case of too much power, and not enough Wisdom to contain it.

Anyways, he got burned by all that uncontrolled power, transmuted to matter, and 13.8 billion years later produced us. It is alluded to in Ezekiel 28.

True God is not happy with the situation. That fast powerful car he gave his son ended up in a ditch and his son on life support. So he sends his Wisdom down to assess the situation, pay the hospital bills, and make preparations to bring the body home.

Miraculously, the body regains consciousness (in us), reunites with the Father’s Wisdom, and begins physical therapy before his trip home. Wisdom right there at his side motivating him on.

That is kind of where we are at, …in physical therapy. Ha ha!

I think you can guess what the rest of story involves. IMO, this was the conception in Paul’s mind and others around the time Christianity was developing.
 
I agree that we have what Christian would call a "sinful" nature, but it is not biblical to say we inherited it from the fall from which the entire concept of original sin is derived. Genesis was very specific about what the effect of Adam's disobedience was and a sinful nature was not part of it. The nature to disobey God's will (to sin) was obviously already present in us from creation. Paul had no scriptural warrant to claim what he did in Romans 5:12.

Well that caught my attention. It is difficult to believe the Apostle Paul had no scriptural warrant for anything he authored.

The knowledge of good from evil is the genesis, the biblical warrant.

Once you have that knowledge, once you realize you are an independent moral agent able to do as you please, you have to be as good and strong as God to only do good, like Jesus.

Our ability to be like that, to only think good and to only do good, can only come from the only one who can do it.

So while that doesn't answer everything, it does satisfy the answer in the only way we can possibly achieve "not sinning", it is with God's power, like Jesus.
 
Well that caught my attention. It is difficult to believe the Apostle Paul had no scriptural warrant for anything he authored.

The knowledge of good from evil is the genesis, the biblical warrant.

Once you have that knowledge, once you realize you are an independent moral agent able to do as you please, you have to be as good and strong as God to only do good, like Jesus.

Our ability to be like that, to only think good and to only do good, can only come from the only one who can do it.

So while that doesn't answer everything, it does satisfy the answer in the only way we can possibly achieve "not sinning", it is with God's power, like Jesus.
So how could disobeying god be "bad" before Adam was even aware of what good and bad was? Lots of terrible human fallout from that ethically forgivable act given that it had no basis for human judgement as of yet. It doesn't make sense that we sinned before sin was brought into the world by our sin. But hey, that's the bible!
 
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So how could disobeying god be "bad" before Adam was even aware of what good and bad was? Lots of terrible human fallout from that ethically forgivable act given that it had no basis for human judgement as of yet. It doesn't make sense that we sinned before sin was brought into the world by our sin. But hey, that's the bible!
There was only one item that was "bad" before Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve were literally free to do whatever they wanted.

There was one man and one woman who had the entire planet to themselves.

God had told them to have lots of sex and populate the entire planet.

They were given the job of being caretakers of a splendid garden and a whole world they were to have dominion over.... i.e., govern.

So, eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was literally the only bad thing they could have done.

Afterwards, there was nothing but trouble.

They were kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have resulted in their living forever, stuck in their bodies, with no hope of escaping the drudgery and misery of their new lives, separated from God by their sin.

Once they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they screwed themselves and the human race.

Thankfully, God provided a solution.
 
There was only one item that was "bad" before Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve were literally free to do whatever they wanted.

There was one man and one woman who had the entire planet to themselves.

God had told them to have lots of sex and populate the entire planet.

They were given the job of being caretakers of a splendid garden and a whole world they were to have dominion over.... i.e., govern.

So, eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was literally the only bad thing they could have done.

Afterwards, there was nothing but trouble.

They were kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have resulted in their living forever, stuck in their bodies, with no hope of escaping the drudgery and misery of their new lives, separated from God by their sin.

Once they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they screwed themselves and the human race.

Thankfully, God provided a solution.
You just made that up. But hey, that's biblical exegesis!
 
Nope
You can read it in Genesis 1-3 for yourself.
There was only one item that was "bad" before Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve were literally free to do whatever they wanted.
Could Adam have killed Eve? Could Eve had killed Adam? Was that o.k. by God as long as the fruit went untouched? They had free will, right?
There was one man and one woman who had the entire planet to themselves.

God had told them to have lots of sex and populate the entire planet.
Could Adam and Eve decided they didn't like the opposite sex and spend their days masturbating instead? Was that o.k. by God?
If they decided to have kids, could they kill and eat them? Could they abort their pregnancies? That'd be o.k. as long as the fruit went untouched - right? They had free will, right?
They were given the job of being caretakers of a splendid garden and a whole world they were to have dominion over.... i.e., govern.
Could they have run around in a berserk then and slaughtered all the animals and burned all the trees because they thought it was fun? Was that o.k. by God? They had free will right? Fruit still not bitten!
So, eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was literally the only bad thing they could have done.
Really? Could Adam have decided to beat Eve everyday? They had free will right? Would that be o.k. since the fruit was untouched?
Afterwards, there was nothing but trouble.

They were kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life,
No they weren't. Guards were put there after the exile to stop that. Read your scripture again, Steve.
which would have resulted in their living forever, stuck in their bodies, with no hope of escaping the drudgery and misery of their new lives, separated from God by their sin.
No, the God(s) didn't want them to become like them. Read your scripture again, Steve.
Once they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they screwed themselves and the human race.

Thankfully, God provided a solution.
To sacrifice himself (which is eternal anyway - some sacrifice - huh?) to himself for what He created..... and you believe this? Why?

I think YOU need to read genesis 1-3 again.
 
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Could Adam have killed Eve?
You clearly need a lesson in reading comprehension.
I said whatever they wanted to do..
Which means that....
Why would he want to murder her?

Could Eve had killed Adam?
Why would she want to?

Was that o.k. by God as long as the fruit went untouched? They had free will, right?
Yep.
They were in perfect condition and totally connected with God, and his life.
They could do whatever they WANTED to do.
I am intrigued that you immediately jumped to something that is presently defined as sin.
People who are in right relationship with God have no interest in violating their relationship with God. They actually delight in truth, love, and righteousness.


Could Adam and Eve decided they didn't like the opposite sex and spend their days masturbating instead?
Considering the narrative described in Genesis 2, it's pretty clear that Adam actually liked Eve's appearance.
But, since you keep running back to sin, I'm thinking that you need to figure out a way to corrupt everything else so you can feel better about your own corruption.

It's sad really....
Adam and Eve were free to do what they wanted.
Reading the bible is pretty clear that they had no interest whatsoever in actually wanting to commit anything defined as sin.

Was that o.k. by God?
God created them in HIS own LIKENESS AND IMAGE.
So, the question you should be asking is why would they have wanted to do anything against their own natures?

If they decided to have kids, could they kill and eat them? That'd be o.k. s long as the fruit went untouched? They had free will right?
It's a matter of want to.
Demonstrate that they actually want to.
As they were created in the image and likeness of YHVH, I'm not seeing anything that would show they wanted to.

Could they have run around in a berserk then and slaughtered all the animals and burned all the trees because they thought it was fun? Was that o.k. by God? They had free will right?
It's a matter of want to.
Demonstrate that they actually want to.
As they were created in the image and likeness of YHVH, I'm not seeing anything that would show they wanted to.


Really? Could Adam have decided to beat Eve everyday? They had free will right? Would that be o.k. since the fruit was untouched?
It's a matter of want to.
Demonstrate that they actually want to.
As they were created in the image and likeness of YHVH, I'm not seeing anything that would show they wanted to.


No they weren't. Guards were put there after the exile to stop that. Read your scripture again, Steve.
You mean like this passage?

Gen 3:22-24 WEB 22 Yahweh God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever—” 23 Therefore Yahweh God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Hmm.... looks pretty clear. God drove them out of the garden and then out a guard in place to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life.


No, the God(s) didn't want them to become like them. Read your scripture again, Steve.
???‍♂️

You mean like this one?

Gen 3:22-24 WEB 22 Yahweh God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever—” 23 Therefore Yahweh God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


To sacrifice himself (which is eternal anyway - some sacrifice - huh?) to himself for what He created..... and you believe this? Why?
Truth has a rather unique look at reality.
I happen to have learned that YHVH knows what he's talking about and is giving us the opportunity to engage him on his terms and when we die, go live with him in his home, until he finishes our eternal homes, and then we'll live on a new earth created by him, and he'll dwell on earth with us.
I think YOU need to read genesis 1-3 again.
Why, are you afraid to?
Let's see....
Last year I read it 6 times.
Over the previous 42 years I've read it several times.
So, perhaps you should explain to me what it is you think I'm missing.
 
Adam's sin is the first problem.
You have inherited the dead spirit, cut off from God.
Yes, Steve - we are cut off from God, having inherited the dead spirit

However, dead spirits are not naturally inheritable
We inherited dead spirits because YHVH DECIDED that this is the consequence of Adam's sin

This has resulted in you committing your very own sin.
Yes, Steve - this is true

Nobody has ever forced you to violate the expressly stated Law of God. You did it all by yourself without any help from any other person.
Wrong, Steve - I am, from birth, utterly incapable of not violating, at least once, the expressly stated Law of God and this is because HE DECIDED, as a response to Adam's sin, that I shall inherit a dead spirit
 
Yes, Steve - we are cut off from God, having inherited the dead spirit

However, dead spirits are not naturally inheritable
Not in your world.
But that is the case in YHVH's world.

We inherited dead spirits because YHVH DECIDED that this is the consequence of Adam's sin
Death in the bible is separation. Not cessation of existence.

Yes, Steve - this is true
Glad you understand that.

Wrong, Steve - I am, from birth, utterly incapable of not violating, at least once, the expressly stated Law of God and this is because HE DECIDED, as a response to Adam's sin, that I shall inherit a dead spirit
The consequence is the entire human race is separated from God and he's provided the solution to our respective, individual sin.

So, it's not wrong.
You however are wrong.
 
Yes, Steve - we are cut off from God, having inherited the dead spirit

However, dead spirits are not naturally inheritable
Not in your world.
But that is the case in YHVH's world.

We inherited dead spirits because YHVH DECIDED that this is the consequence of Adam's sin
Death in the bible is separation. Not cessation of existence.

Yes, Steve - this is true
Glad you understand that.

Wrong, Steve - I am, from birth, utterly incapable of not violating, at least once, the expressly stated Law of God and this is because HE DECIDED, as a response to Adam's sin, that I shall inherit a dead spirit
The consequence is the entire human race is separated from God and he's provided the solution to our respective, individual sin.

So, it's not wrong.
You however are wrong.

What was a living soul in Adam has died because of Adam's sin.

We inherit that once living soul, which died in Adam. Now he's given us the wherewithal to be wholly restored to him through Jesus Christ.
 
What was a living soul in Adam has died because of Adam's sin.

We inherit that once living soul, which died in Adam. Now he's given us the wherewithal to be wholly restored to him through Jesus Christ.
I don't care that YHVH has given us the wherewithal to be wholly restored to Him
Nor should you, Steve

Nobody should want to be restored to a being who, like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum, consciously and purposefully broke communion with us BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT SOMEBODY ELSE DID!

You have never once answered this question, but I'll ask it again:
Would you praise the person who puts out your housefire knowing that it was this same person who consciously and purposefully set your house on fire to begin with?
 
I don't care that YHVH has given us the wherewithal to be wholly restored to Him
Sounds like you actually want to commit suicide. It's a gruesome and self-maliciously tragic thing you're doing to yourself.

Nor should you, Steve
Can't stop with the tyrannical demands can you!
I actually enjoy knowing that YHVH loves me enough to want to adopt me, make me his son, restore me to wholeness and then receive me to live with him forever.

Nobody should want to be restored to a being who, like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum, consciously and purposefully broke communion with us BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT SOMEBODY ELSE DID!
Now you're just describing yourself.
And doing an excellent job of it too.

You have never once answered this question, but I'll ask it again:
Would you praise the person who puts out your housefire knowing that it was this same person who consciously and purposefully set your house on fire to begin with?
Well, considering I'm the one who actually lit my house on fire, I'll gratefully receive all the help he's willing to give.

You're still wrong about him.
You're the one who lit your own life on fire, and are destroying yourself
 
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