Dispensationalism vs Amillennialism

cjab

Well-known member
I read Kim R's dissertation.
As an Amil believer, he is in error straight off, as the Millennium is yet to happen. Satan is still the Prince of this world.
That sounds dualist. So you have no faith in Jesus as having displaced satan as the prince of this world?

Whilst satan may be the nominal head of unbelievers, it is only by their consent that he remains their king. Satan doesn't have any real power. The power belongs to Jesus.

John 12:31 "Now judgement is upon this world' now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself."
 

Keraz

Active member
That sounds dualist. So you have no faith in Jesus as having displaced satan as the prince of this world?

Whilst satan may be the nominal head of unbelievers, it is only by their consent that he remains their king. Satan doesn't have any real power. The power belongs to Jesus.

John 12:31 "Now judgement is upon this world' now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself."
As Peter says: Satan is like a roaring lion, looking for those he can devour.
John 12:31 is an unfulfilled prophecy.
 

puddleglum

Well-known member
During this time mans sinful nature will be show to exist without the aid of Satan stirring things up.

During the Millenium Jesus will rule the earth with a rod of iron. The fact that he needs such a rod shows that humans will still be sinful. When Satan is released at the end of the Millenium a great multitude will follow him.

As Peter says: Satan is like a roaring lion, looking for those he can devour.
John 12:31 is an unfulfilled prophecy.

It's fulfillment began when Jesus atoned for our sins by his death and resurrection. The fulfillment will be complete when Satan is condemned to the lake of fire after his final rebellion.
 

cjab

Well-known member
As Peter says: Satan is like a roaring lion, looking for those he can devour.
The reason satan has to look hard, is because not everyone submits to his deceit. Only those who are willing to be deceived are entrapped by satan.

Also, of course, not every one is predestinated to be saved. Just because not all are saved doesn't mean tnat Christ isn't in complete control of all things.

John 12:31 is an unfulfilled prophecy.
The Greek word νῦν means "now." So it is fulfilled. Otherwise Jesus would be a liar.
 

Keraz

Active member
The Greek word νῦν means "now." So it is fulfilled. Otherwise Jesus would be a liar.
As you may have seen; most Bible Prophecy is Written in the past tense. That is because of the surety of it final fulfilment.
Obviously Satan is not yet driven out and the context of John 12:31-33, proves it.
 

cjab

Well-known member
As you may have seen; most Bible Prophecy is Written in the past tense. That is because of the surety of it final fulfilment.
Obviously Satan is not yet driven out and the context of John 12:31-33, proves it.
Depends on what you see Satan as being driven out of. I take it to mean driven out of the kingdom of God.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
As you may have seen; most Bible Prophecy is Written in the past tense. That is because of the surety of it final fulfilment.
Obviously Satan is not yet driven out and the context of John 12:31-33, proves it.
Jesus came to earth, was tempted by satan for 40 days/nights on earth, died on the cross, resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father, and you believe there is going to be a future war in heaven to cast satan out? 😲
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
I disagree. Man is sinful and Satan has always had an influence and played his part in that.
I believe during this time of the church age, he is limited as not being able to gather together people from all corners of the earth for war. Because when he is released in verse 7, that’s exactly what he does.
Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound From (One Specific Purpose) As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

Revelation 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Does the angel bind satan with a literal chain, ace hardware, home depot?

Revelation 20:1-2KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Yes. Why wouldn't it be a literal chain? And of course the angel doesn't get it at the hardware store; it brings it with him from heaven.
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Jesus came to earth, was tempted by satan for 40 days/nights on earth, died on the cross, resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father, and you believe there is going to be a future war in heaven to cast satan out? 😲
Actually, Revelation says that he has been cast out of heaven and is presently on the earth. Read Revelation chapter 12 in its entirety. "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
If this is true then who is deceiving the nations today?
Well try again, please pay close attention to the "Bold Red" that answers your question

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound From (One Specific Purpose) As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.


Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

Revelation 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had
 

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Smiles, the Angel is in the hardware business, with literal locks, chains, keys?
Why not? If the New Jerusalem can be constructed with literal foundations, walls, and gates (not to mention the same rare elements and minerals found here on earth - Rev. 21:18-21), then why can't angels be given literal chains and keys?
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound From (One Specific Purpose) As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

Revelation 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
FYI T7t7, Satan does Not get bound till AFTER the still future 7 year Tribulation of Dan.9:27 transpires! Thus he gets bound in the Pit when Jesus returns at the END of that Tribulation as per Matt.24:29 in conjunction with Rev.19:11-21 & 20:1-6! Satan will get released at the End of the 1000 year Reign on this old sin stained earth for his FINAL short season rebellion just before the New earth gets created in Rev.21:1! Thus Satan is NOT currently bound in the Pit as of yet!
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
FYI T7t7, Satan does Not get bound till AFTER the still future 7 year Tribulation of Dan.9:27 transpires! Thus he gets bound in the Pit when Jesus returns at the END of that Tribulation as per Matt.24:29 in conjunction with Rev.19:11-21 & 20:1-6! Satan will get released at the End of the 1000 year Reign on this old sin stained earth for his FINAL short season rebellion just before the New earth gets created in Rev.21:1! Thus Satan is NOT currently bound in the Pit as of yet!
Satan is bound "Presently" and will be loosed to deceive the nations when the 6th vial is poured
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Satan is bound "Presently" and will be loosed to deceive the nations when the 6th vial is poured
FYI again, Satan does NOT get bound in the Pit till Christ's Immediate Post Trib. return as per Matt.24:29-30 in conjunction with Rev.19:14-21 & 20:1-6! --------------

Matthew 24:29-30​

New King James Version​

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. -- ------------ --

Revelation 19:14-21​

New King James Version​

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:14-21​

New King James Version​

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [a]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [b]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [c]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. ----- Chapter 20 - 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
 
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Anthony

Well-known member
I read Kim R's dissertation.
As an Amil believer, he is in error straight off, as the Millennium is yet to happen. Satan is still the Prince of this world.

But his belief of the true Israel being Jesus and the faithful Israelites being Christians, is what the NT tells us.
However he and most Christians fail to note the fact of the Jews comprising only 2/12ths of the twelve tribes.
The 10 Northern tribes still remain scattered among the nations and are now as many as the sands of the sea.
Proof that the estimated 30 million Jewish, House of Judah; people are NOT all of Israel.

The House of Israel are mainly the ones who have accepted the Gospel. WE Christians are the Israelites of God, by faith and mostly by descent.
The house of Israel (the lost sheep - parable of the prodigal son) are by descent, nevertheless a mixed seed being dispersed among heathens. This is what New Covenant is about - Heb 8:8-11.

The book of Hos 1&2 tells us who once dispersed were called 'not my people' but later they are called 'My people' - sons of God.

Christians are from the dispersed Israelites provided they acknowledge this fact and understand the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That's how Abraham would become the father of many nations. There are however many Christians following a foreign and unscriptural religion of Christianity. These Christians believe that anyone can be spiritual son of Abraham if believes in Messiah/Christ. It's just the opposite. Those promised children of Abraham are called into believing in a Hebrew Messiah - Who is the Heir to the promises of Abraham:

Heb 2:
11 For both He who sets apart and those who are being set apart are all of One, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brothers,

12 saying, “I shall announce Your Name to My brothers, in the midst of the congregation I shall sing praise to You.”

13 And again, “I shall put My trust in Him.” And again, “See, I and the children whom Elohim gave Me.”

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself similarly shared in the same, so that by means of His death He might destroy him having the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 and deliver those who throughout life were held in slavery by fear of death.

16 For, doubtless, He does not take hold of messengers, but He does take hold of the seed of Aḇraham.

V11 says the One Who Sanctifies and those being sanctified are the descendants of Abraham. That's why He calls them His brethren.
 

Keraz

Active member
Christians are from the dispersed Israelites provided they acknowledge this fact and understand the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That's how Abraham would become the father of many nations. There are however many Christians following a foreign and unscriptural religion of Christianity. These Christians believe that anyone can be spiritual son of Abraham if believes in Messiah/Christ. It's just the opposite. Those promised children of Abraham are called into believing in a Hebrew Messiah - Who is the Heir to the promises of Abraham:
I agree that most Christians are of Abrahamic descent. Especially as his genes are now in virtually everyone alive today.
We Christians are the People of God, His faithful believers, from every tribe, race, nation and language.
WE inherit the Promises of God, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, +
 
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