Dispensationalism vs Amillennialism

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Zechariah 14 represents the second coming in the day of the Lord, the chapter explains the "Eternal Kingdom" in the New Heaven and Earth, Zechariah 14:8 the eternal river of life is present

Revelation 19 is nothing more that the final battle Armageddon and second coming

Matthew 24:30-31 is nothing more than the second coming and last day resurrection

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)
Messianic Age has not yet appeared upon this earth!
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
Messianic Age has not yet appeared upon this earth!
No such thing as a future Messianic age on earth found in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
Messianic Age has not yet appeared upon this earth!
As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Keraz

Active member
The sequence of the end times events is plainly stated in Revelation.
There will be a thousand year reign of Jesus as King of the world after He Returns.
Only at the end of that, will the new heavens and earth come.

Any other theories and ideas about what will happen , are non-biblical and cannot happen.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Revelation puts prophecies scattered in the OT
in a chronological order
and confirms that the promised Messianic Kingdom will last 1000 years
after 3 previous 2000 year ages since Creation
 
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Yahchristian

Well-known member
Revelation puts prophecies scattered in the OT
in a chronological order
and confirms that the promised Messianic Kingdom will last 1000 years
after 3 previous 2000 year ages since Creation

Seems reasonable to me as well.

What year do you calculate Creation to have taken place in?

Based on my calculation of Bible Chronology from Creation to the Battle of Qarqar...

Creation would have been in 3962 BC.

I am curious what others have calculated.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member

Can you show how you came to that using the Bible and archeology/history?

In other words, why are you saying 3925 BC is one?

I have studied many timelines from different "scholars" over the years and found that there is normally just a few places of difference.

I am curious to see where our timelines differ.
 
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Yahchristian

Well-known member
it's a view based on Dead Sea Scroll studies (not the Pharisee calendar)
Onah are 500 year periods

push on the Onah 1, Onah 2 etc to see more details of events

this is this calendar reconstruction recently started year

It looks like the section about Terah and Abraham has gotten the calendar off 29-35 years.

That calendar says... King David crowned in Jerusalem, 2892 AM, 1034 BC.

But in AD 1996, Israel celebrated "Jerusalem 3000"...

3000 years since King David was crowned in Jerusalem between 1005 BC and 999 BC.

The discovery of the Kurkh Monoliths in AD 1861 sets the date of the Battle of Qarqar to 853 BC.

The crowning of King David in 1005-999 BC can be easily calculated from that date.
 

Keraz

Active member
What year do you calculate Creation to have taken place in?
Adam was created in 3970.5 BC
This date is proved correct by subtraction of all the given time periods; Patriarchs, Kings, etc, from the known date of the Babylonian conquest of Judah in 586 BC
I agree with the 3/ 2000 year periods; Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus, Jesus to His Return. Then the final 1000 year Millennium.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Adam was created in 3970.5 BC
This date is proved correct by subtraction of all the given time periods; Patriarchs, Kings, etc, from the known date of the Babylonian conquest of Judah in 586 BC
I agree with the 3/ 2000 year periods; Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus, Jesus to His Return. Then the final 1000 year Millennium.

Sorry, but I can't just take your word for it. :)

Can you please provide a list.

I am truly fascinated with this subject.

But as a Mathematician, I need to see the details to be convinced.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
It looks like the section about Terah and Abraham has gotten the calendar off 29-35 years.
That calendar says... King David crowned in Jerusalem, 2892 AM, 1034 BC.
But in AD 1996, Israel celebrated "Jerusalem 3000"...
3000 years since King David was crowned in Jerusalem between 1005 BC and 999 BC.
The discovery of the Kurkh Monoliths in AD 1861 sets the date of the Battle of Qarqar to 853 BC.
The crowning of King David in 1005-999 BC can be easily calculated from that date.
well, any of these dates are discussable
this view uses Dead Sea Scrolls info, book of Jasher and other works (Seder Olam, book of Jubilees) to compare with Genesis, etc
even those can be suspect because of possible date changing due to rejection of Jesus as Messiah
the Pharisaic calendar is about 165 years off, possibly for that reason

book of Jasher seems legit and has interesting details (and it's mentioned in Scripture, if we have the real one)


Adam was created in 3970.5 BC
This date is proved correct by subtraction of all the given time periods; Patriarchs, Kings, etc, from the known date of the Babylonian conquest of Judah in 586 BC
I agree with the 3/ 2000 year periods; Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus, Jesus to His Return. Then the final 1000 year Millennium.
the view I'm discussing goes by 50 year Jubilee periods

significant things might happen, but then the Age doesn't "officially" end on the Calendar until the 2000 yr mark
example - Messiah dying in say 32AD and then the Temple destroyed in 70AD, but that Age of Torah
doesn't end on the this Calendar until 75AD
coincidentally, I think the Pharisaic Rabbis might have had this council that year

IMO, Messiah second coming could happen, but then there could be a time of transition before the calendar end of Age of Grace
and start of the Kingdom Age at the 6000 or whatever year mark from Creation week

I talk about this stuff on the Messianic forum
'cuz it's Personal interest subjects for Me as well :)
(Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran Essenses, Zadok priesthood, DSS calendar system, extrabiblical Jewish history works, early patriarch testaments, etc.)
 
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Truth7t7

Well-known member
Revelation puts prophecies scattered in the OT
in a chronological order
and confirms that the promised Messianic Kingdom will last 1000 years
after 3 previous 2000 year ages since Creation
Nothing in Revelation or the Old Testament speaks of a Messianic Kingdom for 1,000 years on this earth

The teaching of a Messianic Kingdom on this earth, is a fabricated man made fairy-tale

You completely ignore posts 102 & 103 above as if it's non-existent

Jesus returns in firearm final judgement (The End)

(Then Cometh The End) (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

No Millennial Kingdom On This Earth Takes Place After The Event's Described In Post's 102 & 103 above
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Truth7t7,
The teaching of a Messianic Kingdom on this earth, is a fabricated man made fairy-tale
The following two passages are like bookends to the OT writing prophets and their prophecies. Many additional details are contained within these "bookends".
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Zechariah 14:16 (KJV): And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Kind regards
Trevor
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
Greetings Truth7t7,

The following two passages are like bookends to the OT writing prophets and their prophecies. Many additional details are contained within these "bookends".
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Zechariah 14:16 (KJV): And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Kind regards
Trevor
Isaiah chapter 2 is the "Eternal Kingdom" seen, after the terrible day of the Lord takes place

You will closely note Isaiah 2:22 below, man's breath is taken from his nostrils, all human life ceases, the "Eternal Begins"!

Isaiah 2:19-22KJV
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Zechariah 14:16, Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?​

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
Greetings Truth7t7,

The following two passages are like bookends to the OT writing prophets and their prophecies. Many additional details are contained within these "bookends".
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Zechariah 14:16 (KJV): And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Kind regards
Trevor

Zechariah Chapter 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom, Not A Millennial Kingdom As Many Claim​

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of Armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Truth7t7,
Isaiah chapter 2 is the "Eternal Kingdom" seen, after the terrible day of the Lord takes place
I agree with this your first comment, as Armageddon is looking very real now with Russia on the move Ezekiel 38, Daniel 11:40-45, Revelation 16:12-16. But I disagree with most of the rest of your two posts.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
well, any of these dates are discussable

Right.

So based on everything you have read from all sources...

When do YOU think David was crowned King in Jerusalem?

I would put it in the range of 1005-999 BC.

If I had to pick one year, I would say 1001 BC.

And...

When do you think Jesus was born?

I would put it in the range of 5-4 BC.

If I had to pick one year, I would say 4 BC (before Herod died).
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
When do YOU think David was crowned King in Jerusalem?
not sure
2 Samuel 5 tells his age (30) at and length of reign


Kurkh talks about Assyria relative to Northern kingdom rulers, no?

When do you think Jesus was born?
between 5-2 bc-ish I guess

there is a Scroll prophecy about Messiah's death date
if that was real and figured out correctly, it would still be a guess back to birth year

what is the basis for Herod's death date?


I like the "idea" He was born on Nisan 1
dedication in the Temple on the 8th or 9th for circumcision?
Joseph has to be in Jerusalem 14th thru 21st for Passover?
lambs are chosen on the 10th? are Jews then still doing a meal on the 14th? (there are anomalies in the 2nd Temple era)
or just doing a Seder/with a meal on the 15th?
Matthew says later Lord's Supper it's "the first day of Unleavened Bread"?, so the 15th?
the Lamb of God being taken to Jerusalem at same time lambs taken there from Bethlehem for the feast/festival?
it's speculation...

book of Jasher and other works to compare with Genesis
only go up to time of Joshua
people might tend to put the Exodus later than maybe it was

Messiah "about 30" at start of Ministry/teaching gospel of the Kingdom
Adam created maybe about 30ish looking ??
 
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