Distinction of Two Persons Within God

Towerwatchman

Well-known member
Oneness: What do they believe?
  • We acknowledge "Sola Scriptura" seriously.
  • There is One God with no distinction of persons.
  • Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the one true God manifested in the flesh. He is the One God incarnate. Jesus is the human personification of God.
  • We believe in Father, Son and Holy Ghost but do not hold that these are three distinct persons,
  • The OT establishes that there is One God without distinction of persons. (Isaiah 45)
[What is the Oneness of God as taught by Oneness Pentecostals? Andreas]


According to Oneness when Jesus was born within Him was not a center of consciousness that identified as Jesus, but the center of self-consciousness that preexisted and identifies as God. Therefore, the question arises, “How is this possible if Jesus prayed your will and not mine.”

Their answer.

Jesus praying (John 17) - Why did Jesus pray to the Father? Not only is Jesus God, but to understand the prayers of Jesus we must also fully accept that he was truly man. Psalm 65:2 says all flesh comes to God. So, as God manifested in flesh as a genuine man, Jesus prayed. If you are a human being you are going to pray to God. Jesus was tempted in all points like we are yet without sin. The prayers of Christ prove that He was a genuine human being just like us except for sin. It would be shocking if He didn't pray because how could he be a righteous man and not pray and submit to the will of God.? The prayers do not indicate a distinction in the Godhead, but they tell us that he was an authentic human being. Out of his human identity He prayed.

[What is the Oneness of God as taught by Oneness Pentecostals? Andreas]


According to Oneness Jesus prayed because He was a genuine and authentic human being. Nothing is mentioned about praise or petition. As if the essence of humanity is to pray?

Essence -is properly described as that whereby a thing is what it is; the essence of a thing is that which is expressed by its definition. The essence of a thing is just that which makes it the sort of thing it is. That through which a thing is intelligible or capable of being grasped intellectually.

To grasp humanity is to grasp the essence of human beings [what makes X human] and thus understand what a human being is. To grasp triangularity is to grasp the essence of triangles. = what makes X triangles. The essence of a triangle is what all triangles in all possible worlds will have in common. =Three sides.

What is the essence of humanity? Is it to pray? I do not have to imagine all the possibilities in all the possible worlds to conclude that prayer is not the essence of humanity. Many in this world do not pray. =Atheist /Agnostics. So, the above explanation from Oneness makes no sense; therefore false.

What about Jesus praying, "Father, not my will but thy will be done"? This is not speaking of two divine wills of two eternal persons but the will of the man to the will of God or the Godhead.
[What is the Oneness of God as taught by Oneness Pentecostals? Andreas]

According to Oneness there exist no distinction of persons in God therefore, one person. “Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire. Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God should be one being with one center of self-consciousness who identifies as “I”.

Luke 22:42…” not My will, but Yours, be done.”

From the passage we can conclude that two wills are involved. Since the will, mind and desire originates from self-consciousness we can also conclude that Jesus possess His own center of self-consciousness apart from God. In this verse we have a distinction of two persons within God. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 22&version=NKJV

Oneness rises and falls on the concept of the oneness of God. When describing persons, Oneness seems possible. When reduced to self-consciousness, Oneness fails miserably.
 
Oneness: What do they believe?
  • We acknowledge "Sola Scriptura" seriously.
  • There is One God with no distinction of persons.
  • Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the one true God manifested in the flesh. He is the One God incarnate. Jesus is the human personification of God.
  • We believe in Father, Son and Holy Ghost but do not hold that these are three distinct persons,
  • The OT establishes that there is One God without distinction of persons. (Isaiah 45)
[What is the Oneness of God as taught by Oneness Pentecostals? Andreas]


According to Oneness when Jesus was born within Him was not a center of consciousness that identified as Jesus, but the center of self-consciousness that preexisted and identifies as God. Therefore, the question arises, “How is this possible if Jesus prayed your will and not mine.”

Their answer.

Jesus praying (John 17) - Why did Jesus pray to the Father? Not only is Jesus God, but to understand the prayers of Jesus we must also fully accept that he was truly man. Psalm 65:2 says all flesh comes to God. So, as God manifested in flesh as a genuine man, Jesus prayed. If you are a human being you are going to pray to God. Jesus was tempted in all points like we are yet without sin. The prayers of Christ prove that He was a genuine human being just like us except for sin. It would be shocking if He didn't pray because how could he be a righteous man and not pray and submit to the will of God.? The prayers do not indicate a distinction in the Godhead, but they tell us that he was an authentic human being. Out of his human identity He prayed.

[What is the Oneness of God as taught by Oneness Pentecostals? Andreas]


According to Oneness Jesus prayed because He was a genuine and authentic human being. Nothing is mentioned about praise or petition. As if the essence of humanity is to pray?

Essence -is properly described as that whereby a thing is what it is; the essence of a thing is that which is expressed by its definition. The essence of a thing is just that which makes it the sort of thing it is. That through which a thing is intelligible or capable of being grasped intellectually.

To grasp humanity is to grasp the essence of human beings [what makes X human] and thus understand what a human being is. To grasp triangularity is to grasp the essence of triangles. = what makes X triangles. The essence of a triangle is what all triangles in all possible worlds will have in common. =Three sides.

What is the essence of humanity? Is it to pray? I do not have to imagine all the possibilities in all the possible worlds to conclude that prayer is not the essence of humanity. Many in this world do not pray. =Atheist /Agnostics. So, the above explanation from Oneness makes no sense; therefore false.

What about Jesus praying, "Father, not my will but thy will be done"? This is not speaking of two divine wills of two eternal persons but the will of the man to the will of God or the Godhead.
[What is the Oneness of God as taught by Oneness Pentecostals? Andreas]

According to Oneness there exist no distinction of persons in God therefore, one person. “Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire. Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God should be one being with one center of self-consciousness who identifies as “I”.

Luke 22:42…” not My will, but Yours, be done.”

From the passage we can conclude that two wills are involved. Since the will, mind and desire originates from self-consciousness we can also conclude that Jesus possess His own center of self-consciousness apart from God. In this verse we have a distinction of two persons within God. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 22&version=NKJV

Oneness rises and falls on the concept of the oneness of God. When describing persons, Oneness seems possible. When reduced to self-consciousness, Oneness fails miserably.

COLOSSIANS 2:9 "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily". When God became man, he was a genuine man in every way that we can say we are man except he had no sin. Anything less and then he wouldn't truly be like us.

This being so, it is easy to see that this man whom God became had a distinct human mind, while God's continued to exist simultaneously as He always has existed as omnipotent and all knowing. It is from his human will that he prayed "not my will". This will has nothing to do with another center of consciousness in the Godhead, but his humanity.
 
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COLOSSIANS 2:9 "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily". When God became man, he was a genuine man in every way that we can say we are man except he had no sin. Anything less and then he wouldn't truly be like us.

This being so, it is easy to see that this man whom God became had a distinct human mind, while God's continued to exist simultaneously as He always has existed as omnipotent and all knowing. It is from his human will that he prayed "not my 1will". This will has nothing to do with another center of consciousness in the Godhead, but his humanity.
Whose center of self-consciousness was indwelling in Jesus?
 
COLOSSIANS 2:9 "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily". When God became man, he was a genuine man in every way that we can say we are man except he had no sin. Anything less and then he wouldn't truly be like us.

This being so, it is easy to see that this man whom God became had a distinct human mind, while God's continued to exist simultaneously as He always has existed as omnipotent and all knowing. It is from his human will that he prayed "not my will". This will has nothing to do with another center of consciousness in the Godhead, but his humanity.
When God became man, what was indwelling in Jesus that still identified Jesus as God?
 
When God became man, what was indwelling in Jesus that still identified Jesus as God?

First, having firmly established that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, there is no turning back or watering down that fact.

Colossians 2:9 answers your question: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"

Jesus said, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." (JOHN 14:10)

Based on these and other scriptures, all the fullness of Godhead, or the entirety of divine nature resides in Him bodily. In other words, Jesus is fully God who tabernacled among us (JOHN 1:14).

From the Oneness perspective of JOHN 4:24, God is Spirit, so the indwelling of God in the human body of Christ was specifically the fullness of the Spirit of God. This indwelling of God began at the point of conception (LUKE 1:35) and is permanent and inseparable. This is the basis for the fulfillment of Him being God manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16)
 
When the "Oneness" sect God naecam a man...fully human and fully God...what happened to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit?
 
When the "Oneness" sect God naecam a man...fully human and fully God...what happened to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit?

Your question is framed from a Trinitarian perspective which supposes three persons or individuals by default and thinking about God outside those manmade categories is like a caterpillar contemplating flight. It's outside your wheelhouse because you have been robbed of that ability according to Colossians 2:8.

In answer to your question simply and concisely: the Father, who is Spirit, existed and exists as he always has in addition to his specific manifestation in the flesh.
 
Whose center of self-consciousness was indwelling in Jesus?

I'm going to give you a simple and concise answer without any background about the nature of God.

God the Father in his omnipotence and omniscience continued to exist and perceive as He always has. God continued to exist as infinite Spirit being. The Father was both outside the human body of Christ and inside the human body of Christ. In addition, God, as man, also perceived Himself simultaneously from and within the context and scope of his fully human existence. This man, whom God became, perceived Himself and the world around him as you and I perceive life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as humans do, with all of its potential and limitations. He was in all ways like us except he had no sin.
 
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I'm going to give you a simple and concise answer without any background about the nature of God.

God the Father in his omnipotence and omniscience continued to exist and perceive as He always has. God continued to exist as infinite Spirit being. The Father was both outside the human body of Christ and inside the human body of Christ. In addition, God, as man, also perceived Himself simultaneously from and within the context and scope of his fully human existence. This man, whom God became, perceived Himself and the world around him as you and I perceive life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as humans do, with all of its potential and limitations. He was in all ways like us except he had no sin.
In order to perceive one has to be able to comprehend what one is perceiving. That requires cognition, which requires a mind. Mind only originates from consciousness.
To simplify it, your version of Jesus is basically the father walking on earth clothed in flesh.
So, when Jesus said, my father, it was the father, speaking of himself in the second person. When Jesus prayed, it was basically the father speaking to himself. When Jesus said, baptize, in the name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, he was really saying baptize in the name of the father.
Oneness like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc. has to have the verses explained into their theology versus the theology from scripture. And they all have another thing in common. They cannot handle the complex questions when it comes to God.
 
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Your question is framed from a Trinitarian perspective which supposes three persons or individuals by default and thinking about God outside those manmade categories is like a caterpillar contemplating flight. It's outside your wheelhouse because you have been robbed of that ability according to Colossians 2:8.

In answer to your question simply and concisely: the Father, who is Spirit, existed and exists as he always has in addition to his specific manifestation in the flesh.
Anytime a so-called christian uses the bible against another in the fashion that you did.....See!!! you disagree with me so you've been deceived and not thinking from Christ...I tend to not think about much of what they're saying.
 
Anytime a so-called christian uses the bible against another in the fashion that you did.....See!!! you disagree with me so you've been deceived and not thinking from Christ...I tend to not think about much of what they're saying.

You've been on CARM awhile and you have a track record. I didn't point out Colossians 2:8 arbitrarily or for rhetorical purposes, but because the false doctrine of theology which the Apostle Paul prophetically foretold began to infest the church in the 3rd century, namely Trinitarianism and Arianism. The wording of Colossians 2:8-9 is a well-aimed sword at the underbelly of these false doctrines. The Apostle Paul was reading their mail they were born.
 
In order to perceive one has to be able to comprehend what one is perceiving. That requires cognition, which requires a mind. Mind only originates from consciousness.
To simplify it, your version of Jesus is basically the father walking on earth clothed in flesh.
So, when Jesus said, my father, it was the father, speaking of himself in the second person. When Jesus prayed, it was basically the father speaking to himself. When Jesus said, baptize, in the name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, he was really saying baptize in the name of the father.
Oneness like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc. has to have the verses explained into their theology versus the theology from scripture. And they all have another thing in common. They cannot handle the complex questions when it comes to God.

Did the man Jesus Christ perceive and comprehend? Check. That's what I said.
Did the man Jesus Christ have cognition? Check. That's what I said.
Did the man Jesus Christ have a mind? Check. That's what I said.
Did the man Jesus Christ have consciousness? Check. That's what I said.

You said, "To simplify it, your version of Jesus is basically the father walking on earth clothed in flesh."

No, that is not what I said. That is the opposite of what I've been saying. Recall all those MANY times also when I said Jesus was not God animating a human body PUPPET? Remember the word PUPPET? If not, please go back and read again. It is because you have this sort of view of the incarnation that it is actually you, who on a practical view, sees the eternal God the Son as operating the human body of Christ like a puppet. You have to get away from the puppet concept and accept that Jesus had a real human brain.

So, your main point and summary is not accurate.


You said, "So, when Jesus said, my father, it was the father, speaking of himself in the second person..."

The question is framed within the context limiting God to earthly components called "persons" (Colossians 2:8).

Also recall that I said that I would have to repeat myself about Christ's genuine humanity again, and again, and again to you?

God was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). As far as NT writers the Father is God and God is Father. To say God was manifested in the flesh is equivalent to saying the Father was manifested (1 JOHN 3:1-3). That's the incarnation. He became a genuine man called the Son of God (LUKE 1:35) and from the perspective of an authentic man, he prayed and communicated to the Father. Don't forget about the limitations and ability of his genuine human brain. The man Jesus Christ is said to have grown in wisdom and didn't know everything. The Bible and Oneness theology makes a big difference between the Father and Son because of the importance of God having taken on a genuine human existence for our salvation.

Trinitarianism is a fundamental error in placement of distinction between Father and Son. In putting the distinction up in the Godhead and putting earthly limitations and categories in the eternal Godhead they have erred from the truth. Instead of putting your limitations up in the Godhead, why not put the earthly limitations where the Bible places it, the man Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. God voluntarily, became one of us with all its earthly limitations. Jesus grew in wisdom, was hungry, thirsty, became tired, and bleed and died.


1 JOHN 5:21 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
 
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Did the man Jesus Christ perceive and comprehend? Check. That's what I said.
Did the man Jesus Christ have cognition? Check. That's what I said.
Did the man Jesus Christ have a mind? Check. That's what I said.
Did the man Jesus Christ have consciousness? Check. That's what I said
Ok
You said, "To simplify it, your version of Jesus is basically the father walking on earth clothed in flesh."
Yes
No, that is not what I said. That is the opposite of what I've been saying. Recall all those MANY times also when I said Jesus was not God animating a human body PUPPET? Remember the word PUPPET?
again putting words in my mouth. I never said he was a puppet. A puppet requires a puppeteer. The puppeteer is not indwelling in the puppet. Your version of God, clothes himself in flesh and announces to the world that he is Jesus. When in fact, he is the father, your god is rather deceptive. When we read from genesis to revelation, we can clearly see of distinction of persons between the father and the son, to then find out that it was the father all along. So at face value, the Bible is wrong, and we need something like oneness to explain it to us.
If not, please go back and read again. It is because you have this sort of view of the incarnation that it is actually you, who on a practical view, sees the eternal God the Son as operating the human body of Christ like a puppet. You have to get away from the puppet concept and accept that Jesus had a real human brain.
Trinitarian view is simple and logical. Jesus who existed as a spirit and as God, the one who created everything from nothing and buy nothing, Omnipotent is more than capable of creating a body and indwelling in it.
If this seems to be way out in left field, it’s the same explanation that oneness uses to explain their version of the incarnation.
So, your main point and summary is not accurate.
It only becomes in accurate after you rewrote it and twisted it.
You said, "So, when Jesus said, my father, it was the father, speaking of himself in the second person..."

The question is framed within the context limiting God to earthly components called "persons" (Colossians 2:8).

God was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). As far as NT writers the Father is God and God is Father.
You need to read your New Testament. Jesus is identified in Hebrews as God by the father.
To say God was manifested in the flesh is equivalent to saying the Father was manifested (1 JOHN 3:1-3).
If you hold that passage in isolation, against the backdrop of scripture, your argument fails
That's the incarnation. He became a genuine man called the Son of God (LUKE 1:35) and from the perspective of an authentic man, he prayed and communicated to the Father.
Why would he do that if it was the father, all along in dwelling in Jesus. Your Jesus is rather psychotic.
Don't forget about the limitations and ability of his genuine human brain. The man Jesus Christ is said to have grown in wisdom and didn't know everything. The Bible and Oneness theology makes a big difference between the Father and Son because of the importance of God having taken on a genuine human existence for our salvation.
You basically contradict yourself, there’s a difference between the father and the son, but in all reality, he was always the father.
Trinitarianism is a fundamental error in placement of distinction between Father and Son. In putting the distinction up in the Godhead and putting earthly limitations and categories in the eternal Godhead they have erred from the truth.
You were arguing against the very method you are using to argue for your theology
Instead of putting your limitations up in the Godhead, why not put the earthly limitations where the Bible places it, the man Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. God voluntarily, became one of us with all its earthly limitations. Jesus grew in wisdom, was hungry, thirsty, became tired, and bleed and died.
More soapbox preaching.
1 JOHN 5:21 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
And I’ll keep repeating. Your theology works great when you limit the Scriptures to the translations, ignore the original text. Keep terms, ambiguous, and when press for specificity either cannot answer, or cannot deal with it.
Your worldview cannot deal with the issue of self consciousness.
 
Your question is framed from a Trinitarian perspective which supposes three persons or individuals by default and thinking about God outside those manmade categories is like a caterpillar contemplating flight. It's outside your wheelhouse because you have been robbed of that ability according to Colossians 2:8.

In answer to your question simply and concisely: the Father, who is Spirit, existed and exists as he always has in addition to his specific manifestation in the flesh.
I have been quite aware for a long time of the oneness position, you are explaining. I am not disagreeing that this is the oneness position. But I keep telling you is it’s illogical, and contradicts what scripture reads
 
You've been on CARM awhile and you have a track record. I didn't point out Colossians 2:8 arbitrarily or for rhetorical purposes, but because the false doctrine of theology which the Apostle Paul prophetically foretold began to infest the church in the 3rd century, namely Trinitarianism and Arianism. The wording of Colossians 2:8-9 is a well-aimed sword at the underbelly of these false doctrines. The Apostle Paul was reading their mail they were born.
DUDE!!!!.....you used the Bible against me...BECAUSE IT'S ALL YOU GOT LEFT.

Oh, I know, I think I'll throw some "scary" bible verses at you because you don't think like I do.......HAH HA....take that!!! I just stabbed you in the belly.

How about some biblical verses to support your belief? Can you do that?
 
Ok

Yes

again putting words in my mouth. I never said he was a puppet. A puppet requires a puppeteer. The puppeteer is not indwelling in the puppet. Your version of God, clothes himself in flesh and announces to the world that he is Jesus. When in fact, he is the father, your god is rather deceptive. When we read from genesis to revelation, we can clearly see of distinction of persons between the father and the son, to then find out that it was the father all along. So at face value, the Bible is wrong, and we need something like oneness to explain it to us.

Trinitarian view is simple and logical. Jesus who existed as a spirit and as God, the one who created everything from nothing and buy nothing, Omnipotent is more than capable of creating a body and indwelling in it.
If this seems to be way out in left field, it’s the same explanation that oneness uses to explain their version of the incarnation.

It only becomes in accurate after you rewrote it and twisted it.

You need to read your New Testament. Jesus is identified in Hebrews as God by the father.

If you hold that passage in isolation, against the backdrop of scripture, your argument fails

Why would he do that if it was the father, all along in dwelling in Jesus. Your Jesus is rather psychotic.

You basically contradict yourself, there’s a difference between the father and the son, but in all reality, he was always the father.

You were arguing against the very method you are using to argue for your theology

More soapbox preaching.

And I’ll keep repeating. Your theology works great when you limit the Scriptures to the translations, ignore the original text. Keep terms, ambiguous, and when press for specificity either cannot answer, or cannot deal with it.
Your worldview cannot deal with the issue of self consciousness.

You're still not really getting it, so I'll say it again. The Son of God was a real and genuine human in every way that you and I are, except he had no sin.

Thank you for clarifying on the puppet illustrations. You are correct that puppeteers are not indwelling. I was thinking more along the lines of a ventriloquist puppet, but I see your point. You said, "Your version of God, clothes himself in flesh".

No, that is not correct but the opposite of what I said. There is a reason why I keep repeating that he was a genuine man. God clothing himself in flesh is not completely accurate because as I said before, God didn't just put on a human looking suit. There are lots of costumes and there are even masks that can be put on that make you look like someone else. That is not Oneness Christology at all.

The idea you have asserted about Oneness is that God put on humanity like you would put on clothes. This is why I've said repeatedly that the Son was a genuine human - body, soul, and spirit. To turn your clothes illustrations toward more accuracy, God did not put on a human suit, he became the suit.

Let's go further. As I said repeatedly, the Son perceived as a real man does except for sin. So, the concept is not like the omniscient God rambling around in a body shell and looking through human eye holes in a body suit and out into the world like you would peer through a barn window as you stood inside a barn. If a barn was a living creature, the barn would see himself as a barn and look into the world from his perception of himself as a barn. It's a silly barn illustration, but it goes to the point of genuineness rather than a possession of a physical structure by an outside entity. Can you begin to understand what I'm saying? You may not agree, but do you understand?
 
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You've been on CARM awhile and you have a track record. I didn't point out Colossians 2:8 arbitrarily or for rhetorical purposes, but because the false doctrine of theology which the Apostle Paul prophetically foretold began to infest the church in the 3rd century, namely Trinitarianism and Arianism. The wording of Colossians 2:8-9 is a well-aimed sword at the underbelly of these false doctrines. The Apostle Paul was reading their mail they were born.

I
Paul never prophesied. Poor attempt at establishing authority.
 
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