Diversity of Life: Natural (Evolution) or Miraculous?

[docphin5]

Did God use a miracle to produce diversity of life on our planet or did he use natural processes, such as, evolution to do it? The evidence points to the latter.

Why then are religious fundamentalists so against evolution? Is it because evolution appears to preclude the miraculous? And without the miraculous there can be no God, --or so they seem to think. IOW, they fear the exclusion of God from a process if no miracles occur. The need for miracles is so strong in some religious consciouses that where miracles are lacking then God must be lacking too.

The problem with that is it implies the church today to be lacking God too for no miracles occur today. When is the last time a dead person was raised from the dead? Or a blind man miraculously received his sight? or somebody fed five thousand with five loaves of bread?

It begs the question, Where is God's power demonstrated, if there is no miracle?

The answer, per "Baur" is to recognize the divine omnipotence in sustaining nature in the usual course rather than presume it shows itself greater in the interruption of the laws of nature:

"Spirit shows its power over nature, not in interruption and disturbance of the arrangements of nature, but, as its essence is conformity with law, through the fact that it is the immanent law of nature." ("Baur", "Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ", pg 97)

What about all the miracles "recorded" in scripture? Was God's power demonstrated greater in the times of the apostles than it is today? Not so! For those miracles recorded in scripture, per Baur, are representations of the divine omnipotence's healing effect immanent within nature itself. Therefore, in the mind of the religious consciousness what difference does it make if God achieves his goals by sustaining natural processes or by interrupting natural processes, for both would be from God? There should be no difference.

For example, what difference is there between

Spirit sustaining natural processes, to include evolution, that raised moral beings from lifeless matter AND,​

Spirit represented in scripture interrupting the natural laws in order to raise a man from death?​

​

To a religious consciousness: None whatsoever. It would be the same Spirit doing both. Therefore, God is not lacking if no miracle occurs because the true miracle is the operation of Spirit sustaining nature itself to heal the soul, to produce life where there is death, to produce joy where there is sadness, to offer hope where there is defeat, to make all things new. And this he will do!​

​

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Did God use a miracle to produce diversity of life on our planet or did he use natural processes, such as, evolution to do it?

Your Evo story myths can't demonstrate a biogenesis. Your materialism is grounded on a false predicate and goes downhill from there.

The evidence points to the latter.

You don't have scientific evidence.

Why then are religious fundamentalists so against evolution?

Why are fundie Darwinists against God the Creator?

(Why didn't you mention that Darwin cursed GOD and was angry at God?)

Is it because evolution appears to preclude the miraculous? And without the miraculous there can be no God, --or so they seem to think.

Seem to think is a mind reading notion.

IOW, they fear the exclusion of God from a process if no miracles occur.

List 5 rational reasons we should worship your mutation goddess. Giving all the glory to your mutation goddess.

The need for miracles is so strong in some religious consciouses that where miracles are lacking then God must be lacking too.

Here you insult saints.

The problem with that is it implies the church today to be lacking God too for no miracles occur today. When is the last time a dead person was raised from the dead? Or a blind man miraculously received his sight? or somebody fed five thousand with five loaves of bread?

So we have 3 pastors in our church that saw a blind person healed Manaus Brazil.

Give us the saints name, their doctors name if you intend via blind declaration to say the miracle didn't happen.
None of your shifting burden of truth tricks.

It begs the question, Where is God's power demonstrated, if there is no miracle?

The answer, per "Baur" is to recognize the divine omnipotence in sustaining nature in the usual course rather than presume it shows itself greater in the interruption of the laws of nature:

"Spirit shows its power over nature, not in interruption and disturbance of the arrangements of nature, but, as its essence is conformity with law, through the fact that it is the immanent law of nature." ("Baur", "Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ", pg 97)

What about all the miracles "recorded" in scripture? Was God's power demonstrated greater in the times of the apostles than it is today? Not so! For those miracles recorded in scripture, per Baur, are representations of the divine omnipotence's healing effect immanent within nature itself. Therefore, in the mind of the religious consciousness what difference does it make if God achieves his goals by sustaining natural processes or by interrupting natural processes, for both would be from God? There should be no difference.

For example, what difference is there between

Spirit sustaining natural processes, to include evolution, that raised moral beings from lifeless matter AND,​

Spirit represented in scripture interrupting the natural laws in order to raise a man from death?​

​

To a religious consciousness: None whatsoever. It would be the same Spirit doing both. Therefore, God is not lacking if no miracle occurs because the true miracle is the operation of Spirit sustaining nature itself to heal the soul, to produce life where there is death, to produce joy where there is sadness, to offer hope where there is defeat, to make new all things. And this he will do!​

​

More shaking your fist in GOD's face.

Your faith and fundie trust in fossils unseen.

 

[docphin5]

So we have 3 pastors in our church that saw a blind person healed Manaus Brazil.

Anecdotal evidence only.

Definition of anecdotal evidence by Merriam Webster
: evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them

* "His conclusions are not supported by data; they are based only on anecdotal evidence."​

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

The Big lie in Fundamentalist Darwinism

They claim there is a human/primate common ancestor.

Show us the common ancestor.

All excuses and deflections will be regarded of admitting the claim is false.

We require an uncontaminated and uninterrupted chain of evidence.

No hype or handwaving.

 

[CrowCross]

Did God use a miracle to produce diversity of life on our planet or did he use natural processes, such as, evolution to do it? The evidence points to the latter.

the Bible tells us God didn't use evolutionism to create the diversity of life.

Why then are religious fundamentalists so against evolution? Is it because evolution appears to preclude the miraculous? And without the miraculous there can be no God, --or so they seem to think. IOW, they fear the exclusion of God from a process if no miracles occur. The need for miracles is so strong in some religious consciouses that where miracles are lacking then God must be lacking too.

For evolution to occur as per the T.o.E.....magic mutations are required....mutations happening in just the right spot at just the right time.

The problem with that is it implies the church today to be lacking God too for no miracles occur today. When is the last time a dead person was raised from the dead? Or a blind man miraculously received his sight? or somebody fed five thousand with five loaves of bread?

When one does a deep dive in the accounts missionaries present in forgotten 3rd world countries you find cases where the dead ave been raised and the blind have received sight. I don't know if thousands have been fed via the process of a fish or bread miraculously reproducing in a basket but there are many accounts of miracles that have occurred.

It begs the question, Where is God's power demonstrated, if there is no miracle?

Just as a democrat will never believe in the truth, that is the election was stolen an atheist or similar mindset will never believe that a miracle can actually happen.
Many church's today have a time of praise and prayer during their worship time..where the congregation asks for prayer for such and such and later on they come back with a praise where such and such has occurred.

God demonstrates His power ALL THE TIME. Because you choose not to see the miracles

"Spirit shows its power over nature, not in interruption and disturbance of the arrangements of nature, but, as its essence is conformity with law, through the fact that it is the immanent law of nature." ("Baur", "Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ", pg 97)

Does God always need to contradict nature for a miracle to occur?

How about when a family about to be kicked out of their home because they don't have the rent money...prays about it...them moments later hears a knock on the door and upon opening the door receives a check from a person for the exact amount of the rent. Is that not a miracle?

What about all the miracles "recorded" in scripture? Was God's power demonstrated greater in the times of the apostles than it is today? Not so! For those miracles recorded in scripture, per Baur, are representations of the divine omnipotence's healing effect immanent within nature itself. Therefore, in the mind of the religious consciousness what difference does it make if God achieves his goals by sustaining natural processes or by interrupting natural processes, for both would be from God? There should be no difference.

You need to answer the question....what difference does it make if God achieves his goals by sustaining natural processes or by interrupting natural processes.

For example, what difference is there between

Spirit sustaining natural processes, to include evolution, that raised moral beings from lifeless matter AND,​

Spirit represented in scripture interrupting the natural laws in order to raise a man from death?​

As mentioned earlier...the Bible doesn't support evolution (mutations increased information to the point we the diversity of life on our planet)
What we actually see is that information is removed that has produced the diversity of life on our planet....as demonstrated by the speciation of animals after they departed from the Ark of Noah and bred in the "new" wild.

​

To a religious consciousness: None whatsoever. It would be the same Spirit doing both. Therefore, God is not lacking if no miracle occurs because the true miracle is the operation of Spirit sustaining nature itself to heal the soul, to produce life where there is death, to produce joy where there is sadness, to offer hope where there is defeat, to make all things new. And this he will do!​

​

God often "nudges". You fail to see this and the miracle.

 

[CrowCross]

AN posted....So we have 3 pastors in our church that saw a blind person healed Manaus Brazil.

Your reply:

Anecdotal evidence only.

On our level of hearing the testimonial...perhaps yes. But the 3 pastors who witnessed the miracle, no. It was fact.
I feel sorry for you that you don't experience God but rather write it off to your idol of science.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Anecdotal evidence only.

Definition of anecdotal evidence by Merriam Webster
: evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them

* "His conclusions are not supported by data; they are based only on anecdotal evidence."​

All evo myths are anecdotal

Your dishonest trick fails. I tell you to go find the person and their doctor and prove both are wrong.

You won't do it.



Show us the human/primate common ancestor.

So your juvenile evostory legends collapse.
You can't fool God.

 

[Gus Bovona]

When one does a deep dive in the accounts missionaries present in forgotten 3rd world countries you find cases where the dead ave been raised and the blind have received sight.

Can choose a *single* case of the dead being raised that you think is the best evidenced, and show us (or present links to) the evidence? We can discuss it.

 

[rossum]

God often "nudges". You fail to see this and the miracle.

If God has to 'nudge' things, then God is admitting failure.

A great pool player takes her shot, and it come out exactly as she planned. A merely average pool player takes his shot and would like to 'nudge' the cue ball to get the planned result.

If God created the universe, then He set up the rules of the universe and also set the initial conditions. Having to 'nudge' things part way through means that either He got the rules wrong, He got the initial conditions wrong, or both. Your God-who-nudges cannot be omniscient, or He would have foreseen, and avoided, any need to 'nudge'.

 

[The Pixie]

AN posted....So we have 3 pastors in our church that saw a blind person healed Manaus Brazil.

Your reply:

On our level of hearing the testimonial...perhaps yes. But the 3 pastors who witnessed the miracle, no. It was fact.
I feel sorry for you that you don't experience God but rather write it off to your idol of science.

Can you point is to the news report? An event like that must surely have been headlines!

I tried to Google it ("blind healed Manaus Brazil") but found nothing. Almost as though it never happened.... I feel sorry for you if you need to believe fabricated stories to bolster your faith.

 

[CrowCross]

Can choose a *single* case of the dead being raised that you think is the best evidenced, and show us (or present links to) the evidence? We can discuss it.

Personally I've never witnessed it....but as I have said missionaries have.
In the "developed" countries we are taught miracles don't happen. They are a thing of the past...or people like you have demonstrated them to be misinterpretations of natural science or something else. For example cases where a persons x-rays have shown them to be loaded with stage 4 cancer have been repeated a short time later after the person was prayed for...and the doctor is amazed when the cancer is gone. The doctors reply "this happens" is the answer. You might chalk it off to the wrong x-ray being read or something similar.

I suppose unless you actually see it with your own eyes you won't believe it....then still consider it a very good magic trick.

My suggestion would be for you to find a church that prays and praises...with needs...attend it for a while and see for yourself. (I'm not talking about a TV mega church)

 

[CrowCross]

If God has to 'nudge' things, then God is admitting failure.

A great pool player takes her shot, and it come out exactly as she planned. A merely average pool player takes his shot and would like to 'nudge' the cue ball to get the planned result.

If God created the universe, then He set up the rules of the universe and also set the initial conditions. Having to 'nudge' things part way through means that either He got the rules wrong, He got the initial conditions wrong, or both. Your God-who-nudges cannot be omniscient, or He would have foreseen, and avoided, any need to 'nudge'.

WOW, you are shallow.

Are you saying that God should not allow a person to have a heart attack..so they can spend time in a hospital where their job is to witness to the attending staff and be used by God to create new believers?

Then again if there really is a God then there would be no need for hospitals? What do you say about that shallow person?

 

[docphin5]

How about when a family about to be kicked out of their home because they don't have the rent money...prays about it...them moments later hears a knock on the door and upon opening the door receives a check from a person for the exact amount of the rent. Is that not a miracle?

Not by the common definition of miracle, because the giving of money as charity is a natural process. It happens all the time. people help each other in need.

The Spirit impressing upon a soul to help another in need is not breaking any laws of nature. It is acting within the laws of nature. It is a soul-process (something not fully understood). The same process resulting in moral beings from lifeless matter, joy instead of sadness, hope instead of defeat, etc.

As explained in my earlier post a religious consciousness makes no distinction between the Spirit affecting a soul for good and a “miracle” if that is what you want to call it. Nevertheless, it does not break the laws of nature. Whereas, a pot of gold dropping from the sky would be a miraculous event and also break the laws of nature. But no one has ever claimed a pot of gold dropped from the sky to help someone in need, and never will.

 

[Gus Bovona]

Personally I've never witnessed it....but as I have said missionaries have.

Do you think a report of a miracle is sufficient evidence to believe it happened?

In the "developed" countries we are taught miracles don't happen. They are a thing of the past...or people like you have demonstrated them to be misinterpretations of natural science or something else. For example cases where a persons x-rays have shown them to be loaded with stage 4 cancer have been repeated a short time later after the person was prayed for...and the doctor is amazed when the cancer is gone. The doctors reply "this happens" is the answer. You might chalk it off to the wrong x-ray being read or something similar.

So when a stage for cancer disappears *without* anyone praying for them, doesn't that indicated that it could happen without prayer? So why conclude it was prayer in cases when prayer occurred when it could have happened without prayer? The principle of the null hypothesis says that we conclude it wasn't prayer (given just that evidence that you mention above; more evidence might change that).

I suppose unless you actually see it with your own eyes you won't believe it....then still consider it a very good magic trick.

Of course, that would be the rational thing to consider.

My suggestion would be for you to find a church that prays and praises...with needs...attend it for a while and see for yourself. (I'm not talking about a TV mega church)

A single person may well not be intelligent or clever enough to make a sound decision, especially when I'm only going to hear a report of something.

Ultimately, though, you don't, then, have a specific case we can discuss.

 

[rossum]

WOW, you are shallow.

Are you saying that God should not allow a person to have a heart attack..so they can spend time in a hospital where their job is to witness to the attending staff and be used by God to create new believers?

Then again if there really is a God then there would be no need for hospitals? What do you say about that shallow person?

No I am not saying that. I am pointing out an inherent flaw of the ID God, who intervenes directly outside the existing natural laws.

Any God who needs to 'nudge' things along in the development of species made some sort of error in setting up the universe; either the wrong rules, the wrong initial conditions or both.

You claim that your God is doing some nudging. An omniscient omnipotent God does not need to nudge; He gets it completely right the first time. No need to intervene later to correct typos or other mistakes.

 

[CrowCross]

Not by the common definition of miracle, because the giving of money as charity is a natural process. It happens all the time. people help each other in need.

The Spirit impressing upon a soul to help another in need is not breaking any laws of nature. It is acting within the laws of nature. It is a soul-process (something not fully understood). The same process resulting in moral beings from lifeless matter, joy instead of sadness, hope instead of defeat, etc.

As explained in my earlier post a religious consciousness makes no distinction between the Spirit affecting a soul for good and a “miracle” if that is what you want to call it. Nevertheless, it does not break the laws of nature. Whereas, a pot of gold dropping from the sky would be a miraculous event and also break the laws of nature. But no one has ever claimed a pot of gold dropped from the sky to help someone in need, and never will.

Wow, warped.

You'll say anything to get rid of a miracle. What ever dude.

 

[CrowCross]

Any God who needs to 'nudge' things along in the development of species made some sort of error in setting up the universe; either the wrong rules, the wrong initial conditions or both.

I didn't say that God nudges along evolutionism....

I said...and I expand...God often nudges along a situation...opens doors....often so subtle you don't even know it happened and often so drastic, that is above coinicidence, there is no doub't it was God nudging.

Remember God didn't use evolution to create mankind. Man was made from the dust the women from mans (Adams) side/rib.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you think a report of a miracle is sufficient evidence to believe it happened?

Yes, especially when you know the person well enough...and can be trusted.

 

[docphin5]

Wow, warped.

You'll say anything to get rid of a miracle. What ever dude.

If one boils down what I am saying it is no different than when Paul declares faith as the means to salvation. It is faith in the working of the Holy Spirit that saves, not witness to supernatural events or miracles as commonly understood. The believer believes the Spirit at work in salvation, not by sight, but by faith. In this we are saved.

”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

”for we walk by faith, not by sight.” (2 cor 5:7)

”But the fruit [manifestation] of the Spirit [in our lives] is
love,
joy,
peace,
patience,
kindness,
goodness,
faithfulness,
gentleness,
self-control;
against such things there is no law.” (Gal 5:22). Therefore, believe in these things ^^^^^ as evidence for the work of the Spirit. Believe it to be true and you will be saved. Believe. …Believe.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Do you think a report of a miracle is sufficient evidence to believe it happened?

Go speak with a doctor that reports a miracle. MRI's x-ray.

Are you anti-science?

Go ahead and keep peddling your story on a human/primate common ancestor.

Science requires observation. Your wild stories lack evidence and observations.

Why?
Our Bishop has no problem with miracles asking a saint to bring a note from their surgeon. His masters engineering education was in Nuclear Medicine.

Abiogenesis is a miracle your insulting used car salesmen can't demonstrate.