Divine Determinism running amok

Chalcedon said:
Yet God chooses some of those sinners for heaven and chooses the rest for hell…
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So you don’t believe God knew everyone’s Ultimate destination before he “chose” to create them?

Or was your god just hoping it would turn out other than what he knew before he “chose” to create them?

Did your god have the choice to not create them, saving them from what he knew, or was your god fated to create them anyway?

Chalcedon said:
and neither group has a choice under Gods Sovereignty. God made that choice form them via His Sovereignty , Meticulous Divine Determination, Double Predestination, Irresistible Grace and Unconditional Election. Those are the false doctrines taught by calvin and augustine.

hope this helps !!!
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Did you have a “choice” of when, where, or how you were created before God created you? No, and neither did those who God knew would end in hell. God is the only one who could have determined a different outcome for them by “choosing” to not create them in the first place.

Yet your god had no other choice but to create them, therefore he was fated to send people to hell.

When God “chose” to created those he knew would end up in hell did he also know that he was powerless to save them in your view? Why didn’t he do more in your view?

Would you “choose” to have a child if you knew 100% it would end in hell for eternity?

The God of scripture “chose” to create knowing 100% which ones would end in hell for eternity… and nothing can change what he knew.

The glaring problem with your view is your god was powerless at any point to determine a different outcome for them. Your god was fated to create those he knew would end up in hell.

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Chalcedon said:
Yet God chooses some of those sinners for heaven and chooses the rest for hell and neither group has a choice under Gods Sovereignty. God made that choice form them via His Sovereignty , Meticulous Divine Determination, Double Predestination, Irresistible Grace and Unconditional Election. Those are the false doctrines taught by calvin and augustine.

hope this helps !!!
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Predestination is always positive, in the Bible. In other words, God has actively chosen to save certain ones, out of the mass of hell-deserving sinners, and has left the others in the sin they desire.

Rom. 8:29,30 (MKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Eph. 1:3-6 (MKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.

Eph. 1:11 (MKJV) in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,

This is called "single predestination"; and it's what I believe, because it's what the Bible states.

Divine Determination, Single Predestination, Irresistible Saving Grace and Unconditional Election are taught throughout the Bible, so I couldn't care less whether Augustine or Calvin taught them, or not.
 
David1701 said:
Predestination is always positive, in the Bible. In other words, God has actively chosen to save certain ones, out of the mass of hell-deserving sinners, and has left the others in the sin they desire.

Rom. 8:29,30 (MKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Eph. 1:3-6 (MKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.

Eph. 1:11 (MKJV) in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,

This is called "single predestination"; and it's what I believe, because it's what the Bible states.

Divine Determination, Single Predestination, Irresistible Saving Grace and Unconditional Election are taught throughout the Bible, so I couldn't care less whether Augustine or Calvin taught them, or not.
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No its more negative then positive since most of mankind was created/chosen/predestined/predetermined for hell according to calvinism/augustianism. This is calvinism 101.

hope this helps !!!
 
Chalcedon said:
No its more negative then positive since most of mankind was created/chosen/predestined/predetermined for hell according to calvinism/augustianism. This is calvinism 101.

hope this helps !!!
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I showed you all the references to "predestination", in the MKJV. Feel free to show which of those is negative, thanks.

There is a difference between actively choosing to intervene in a person's destiny (predestination to salvation), and leaving him to what he wants anyway (sin).
 
David1701 said:
I showed you all the references to "predestination", in the MKJV. Feel free to show which of those is negative, thanks.

There is a difference between actively choosing to intervene in a person's destiny (predestination to salvation), and leaving him to what he wants anyway (sin).
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Exactly. One is active and the other is passive. But God ultimately is the cause of all that occurs. He upholds and sustains all things
 
David1701 said:
I showed you all the references to "predestination", in the MKJV. Feel free to show which of those is negative, thanks.

There is a difference between actively choosing to intervene in a person's destiny (predestination to salvation), and leaving him to what he wants anyway (sin).
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I know what the bible says lol. I'm letting people know what calvinism teaches which is obviously contrary to scripture as you have proven with your verses so thanks for making my point for me David, I appreciate that brother.

hope this helps !!!
 
Chalcedon said:
I know what the bible says lol. I'm letting people know what calvinism teaches which is obviously contrary to scripture as you have proven with your verses so thanks for making my point for me David, I appreciate that brother.

hope this helps !!!
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Some of those whom you call "Calvinists" (a misnomer) teach double predestination, but some teach single predestination. I proved that predestination is always positive, in the Bible, which favours single predestination.
 
Howie said:
Do you leave your home open for anyone to come in and stay as long as they want, or do you claim the right to set conditions regarding who can enter your kingdom and when, and who cannot enter?

Why do you insist on denying God that right?
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Crickets from @Chalcedon.
 
Sketo said:
Yet in your understanding “God gave man freewill” the very tool that he knew they would use for “Evil”. Did this result not “enter the mind of God” before he “done such a thing”…

Also you believe that God could have destroyed Satan the moment he rebelled but instead cast him down to the very point in the entire universe where he could cause the greatest evil… the Garden of Eden. Did this result not “enter the mind of God” before he “done such a thing”…

Also wasn’t it God that “unleashed” Satan on Job? Did this result not “enter the mind of God” before he “done such a thing”…

…
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So let me get this right. You think God caused Satan to sin and commit evil through ordering it so that through Satan, God could unleash evil and sin upon His subject? That's what you are advocating?
 
Joe said:
So let me get this right. You think God caused Satan to sin and commit evil through ordering it so that through Satan, God could unleash evil and sin upon His subject? That's what you are advocating?
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I would say it never entered the Mind of God to Cause Lucifer to Sin, and do Evil in his sight...
 
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Joe said:
So am I correct that in your view God did not order Satan's sin but foreknew he would sin?

God Bless
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This is a sad story line.

But the way the story goes is that there was no room for satan. in god's kingdom.

So satan said he would just file the opposite.
 
Joe said:
So am I correct that in your view God did not order Satan's sin but foreknew he would sin?

God Blessg
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I would Conflate it to God and Joseph's brothers both having Agency, Volition and Dominion in Joseph being sold into Slavery; but I'd say the Meaning of the Agents were not similar. I do not think the words '0rder Sin' are applicable; just as the words 'Author Sin' wouldn't apply...

If I remember, you and I quibble over the words that are used. Since it's true it never entered God's Mind to Cause Judah to Sin, there couldn't have been an Order to Sin...
 
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ReverendRV said:
I would Conflate it to God and Joseph's brothers both having Agency, Volition and Dominion in Joseph being sold into Slavery; but I'd say the Meaning of the Agents were not similar. I do not think the words '0rder Sin' are applicable; just as the words 'Author Sin' wouldn't apply...

If I remember, you and I quibble over the words that are used. Since it's true it never entered God's Mind to Cause Judah to Sin, there couldn't be an Order to Sin...
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Yes, we quibble because words have meanings. So did God order Satan to sin before the world was made or did He know Satan would sin through foreknowledge and permit it? Seems like a very easy question to answer. And you know why I ask. The Calvinist theory has God ordering sin before anything was made and none of it by foreknowledge. I just want to see where you stand.
 
Joe said:
Yes, we quibble because words have meanings. So did God order Satan to sin before the world was made or did He know Satan would sin through foreknowledge and permit it? Seems like a very easy question to answer. And you know why I ask. The Calvinist theory has God ordering sin before anything was made and none of it by foreknowledge. I just want to see where you stand.
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It is an easy question to answer. No, God didn't Order Lucifer to Sin; and God knew Lucifer would Sin, and he permitted it...

But it's the wrong question since you are using the words "Order Sin". It never enters the Mind of God to Cause/Order/Mean Sin; but it does enter God's Mind to Providentially Cause/Order/Mean All things which come to pass for the Good...
 
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ReverendRV said:
It is an easy question to answer; no God didn't Order Lucifer to Sin, and God knew Lucifer would Sin, and God permitted it...

But it's the wrong question because you are using the words "Order Sin". It never enters the Mind of God to Cause/Order Sin; but it does enter God's Mind to Providentially Cause/Order/Mean All things which come to pass for Good...
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I don't get it ....

Can I convert later?
 
Chalcedon said:
The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :


"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).


This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." https://www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us
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Wow, that is a new low in logical fallacies. You do understand what "brings about" means, right? It doesn't mean that He makes it happen, or John Piper would have said He actually makes it happen. Yet, you quoted above where he says He actually "brings about" all things in accordance with His will. Just what does that mean? I means that God's will has an end point, which is when Satan is defeated, the world is blown up, and God brings in the new heaven's and new earth. Yet, Adam sinned in the beginning. Why did God bring this about? If He didn't, then Jesus wouldn't die, and there would be no defeat of Satan, the world blowing up, and God bringing in a new heavens and a new earth. God brings about all things, but doesn't make them happen. The idea is that God shapes everything (according to the system that governs the whole universe, as instituted by God), so that everything goes according to His will. And that includes everything.
Chalcedon said:
No thank you God, I do not know this god being described above as he sure is not the Loving God of the Bible that I know. This is a foreign god, an idol made by man. I reject such a fatalistic, deterministic and unloving god.

hope this helps !!!
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Your God slaughtered millions in the Old Testament using Israel. He committed genocide, sending millions to hell by His own hand, with no hope. He struck Uzzah dead for simply reaching out to keep the Ark of the Covenant from falling off the cart. He killed Nathan, David's son, even though David was fasting in sack cloth and ashes, repenting of what he had done. God had wild animals tearing children apart. God killed the whole population of the Earth, except for eight people. God slaughtered a large percentage of the population of Israel simply because David called for a census. God killed Israelites in battle simply because one person, ONE PERSON, whom God didn't punish, had disobeyed Him. This was one person who disobeyed. When he was found out what did God have done? The whole family, extended family, was put to death with the guilty party. Crispy critters. All straight to hell, with no hope, because God demanded it. How about Koreth, when he rebelled against Moses? God killed him, those who sided with him, and their innocent families, and He did it PERSONALLY. Innocent people going to hell with no hope, because of someone else's actions, and God decided their families, whether involved or not, had to die as well. The Egyptians first born children slaughtered because God hardened pharaoh's heart so that God could slaughter the first born so that the nation's around would see the power of God through the slaughter. Have I properly described the God you serve, this loving God? I have, but you don't understand what it means for God to be God. He did nothing wrong because we are His property. It doesn't even matter that we are sentient. He is free to do as He pleases with His property.

The Old Testament is special in that it makes it clear that God did it.
 
Joe said:
Do you not see who you accuse of evil and sin?? God unleashed evil and sin on His creation?? Quite honestly that is what despots do to their subjects.

The true God did not unleash evil and sin. If you read the bible enough you will realize there is one called the devil, Satan, the accuser of the brethren, the father of lies, the tempter, prince of darkness, god of this world, god of this age, prince of the power of the air, the great dragon, serpent of old, adversary, your enemy, and etc that led part of creation into opposition of God.

You are accusing God for what His enemy and ours has done. At least you didn't cower around under the guise of ambiguity. You came right out and said it. A true Calvinist.
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I think God allowing and not determine sin is the answer to the debate . Either extreme position is incorrect, it’s somewhere in between .
 
Redeemed said:
I think God allowing and not determine sin is the answer to the debate . Either extreme position is incorrect, it’s somewhere in between .
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Yep as you noted it’s somewhere in the middle - fatalism , meticulous determinism is on the one extreme and deism on the other side
 
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