Divine Determism are you sure you are a Calvinist ?

His clay said:
Is the poisoning the well and straw man fallacy supposed to be persuasive? Calvin wasn't an atheist. His religion wasn't Daemonism. Calvin did acknowledge and adore the Creator and benevolent governor of the world. Jefferson offers his derogatory opinions and perspective of Calvinism; he fails to make any arguments dealing with the real thing, nor did he give any arguments period. Again, all that I see here is the conflation of negative personal opinion into appearances, like the mudslinging of political elections and fake news. If he had addressed the reality and offered real argument, it would have been much more persuasive.

As others have pointed out, Jefferson was not a Christian, for he denied core tenants of Christianity. Richard Dawkins quotes one of Jefferson's blasphemous moments (calling the God of the OT a s**t) in The God Delusion. I think that it is well known that Jefferson snipped large chunks of the Bible that he didn't like. His snipping of the resurrection demonstrates he believed in a false gospel as 1 Cor 15 indicates that the resurrection is essential to the gospel.

Chalcedon, aside from referencing some of the new atheists, you could not have been less persuasive in offering poor argumentation and corrupt sources in badmouthing Calvinism. Richard Dawkins thinks that you worship a morally corrupt tyrant (and my paraphrase is much less blasphemous than his actual wording) and you are delusional. Do you find that persuasive? Do you find Dawkins' invective and mockery persuasive? If you do not find it persuasive, then you have joined the club of the Calvinists you deride and verbally abuse by means of the unbelieving Jefferson.
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Fact check your fact checkers

The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You've Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson​

by David Barton

America, in so many ways, has forgotten. Its roots, its purpose, its identity all have become shrouded behind a veil of political correctness bent on twisting the nation's founding, and its founders, to fit within a misshapen modern world.

The time has come to remember again.

In The Jefferson Lies, prominent historian David Barton sets out to correct the distorted image of a once-beloved founding father, Thomas Jefferson. To do so, Barton tackles seven myths head-on, including:

  • Did Thomas Jefferson really have a child by his young slave girl, Sally Hemings?
  • Did he write his own Bible, excluding the parts of Christianity with which he disagreed?
  • Was he a racist who opposed civil rights and equality for black Americans?
  • Did he, in his pursuit of separation of church and state, advocate the secularizing public life?
Through Jefferson's own words and the eyewitness testimony of contemporaries, Barton repaints a portrait of the man from Monticello as a visionary, an innovator, a man who revered Jesus, a classical Renaissance man and a man whose pioneering stand for liberty and God-given inalienable rights fostered a better world for this nation and its posterity. For America, the time to remember these truths again is now.
 
ReverendRV said:
If I can climb out on that Limb; for the most part, I think they agree with me...

You may have never heard me say this, but I say it a lot. "We are so busy defending Calvinism here, that we only appear to be one-sided". Take us to the Roman Catholicism Boards, and see how fast we start supporting Faith Alone. Go with us to the Secular Atheism Board, and listen to us preach the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Lost...

Outside of here; they may be just like me...

We ARE Compatibalists...
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And now you have a theme song:

We ARE THE Compatibalists....

I've paid my dues time after time
I've done my sentence but committed no crime
And bad mistakes, I've made a few
I've had my share of sand kicked in my face
But I've come through

And we mean to go on, and on, and on, and on
 
Predestined said:
Fact check your fact checkers

The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You've Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson​

by David Barton

America, in so many ways, has forgotten. Its roots, its purpose, its identity all have become shrouded behind a veil of political correctness bent on twisting the nation's founding, and its founders, to fit within a misshapen modern world.

The time has come to remember again.

In The Jefferson Lies, prominent historian David Barton sets out to correct the distorted image of a once-beloved founding father, Thomas Jefferson. To do so, Barton tackles seven myths head-on, including:

  • Did Thomas Jefferson really have a child by his young slave girl, Sally Hemings?
  • Did he write his own Bible, excluding the parts of Christianity with which he disagreed?
  • Was he a racist who opposed civil rights and equality for black Americans?
  • Did he, in his pursuit of separation of church and state, advocate the secularizing public life?
Through Jefferson's own words and the eyewitness testimony of contemporaries, Barton repaints a portrait of the man from Monticello as a visionary, an innovator, a man who revered Jesus, a classical Renaissance man and a man whose pioneering stand for liberty and God-given inalienable rights fostered a better world for this nation and its posterity. For America, the time to remember these truths again is now.
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en.wikipedia.org

Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Interesting article on what your author calls a myth. It seems pretty clear that Jefferson was affected by naturalism, and so he omitted the supernatural, like resurrection.

I will quote a lengthy statement from Jefferson (from above link), who thought that Paul and the writers of the gospels had corrupted the teachings of Jesus.
In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to them. We must dismiss the Platonists & Plotinists, the Stagyrites & Gamalielites, the Eclectics the Gnostics & Scholastics, Logos & Demi-urgos, Aeons & Daemons male & female, with a long train of Etc. Etc. Etc. or, shall I say at once, of Nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the Amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an 8vo of 46 pages of pure and unsophisticated doctrines
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His clay said:
en.wikipedia.org

Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Interesting article on what your author calls a myth. It seems pretty clear that Jefferson was affected by naturalism, and so he omitted the supernatural, like resurrection.

I will quote a lengthy statement from Jefferson (from above link), who thought that Paul and the writers of the gospels had corrupted the teachings of Jesus.
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Is Wikipedia biased? Yes!

Like I said Fact check your fact checkers. Yours sound extremely bias.

en.wikipedia.org

David Barton (author) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 

Quotes on the Original Intent of the Constitution​

The Constitution of the United States was intended to be understood in a certain context and was not meant to be reinterpreted in modern thought. To do so is to invalidate areas of the Constitution. Therefore, to properly understand the intent of the Constitution we must not apply modernistic interpretations. Instead, we should seek to understand what was meant by the founding fathers in their context.

  1. Original intent of Constitution
    1. James Madison, fourth president, 1809 to 1817
      1. “I entirely concur in the propriety of resorting to the sense in which the Constitution was accepted and ratified by the nation. In that sense alone it is the legitimate constitution and if that be not the guide in expounding it there can be no security for a consistent and stable, more than for a faithful, exercise on its powers… what a metamorphosis would be produced in the code of law if all its ancient phraseology were to be taken in its modern sense.” (David Barton, Original Intent: the Courts, the Constitution, and Religion, (Wall Builders, P.O. Box 397; Aledo, Texas, 76008), p. 22)
    2. Justice Joseph Story, founder of the Harvard Law school, nominated to the Supreme Court by President James Madison.
      1. “The first and fundamental rule in the interpretation of all instruments [documents] is to construe them according to the sense of the terms in the intention of the parties.” (David Barton, Original Intent: the Courts, the Constitution, and Religion, (Wall Builders, P.O. Box 397; Aledo, Texas, 76008), p. 23)
      2. “the real object of the [First A]mendment was not to countenance, much less to demand, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects.” (David Barton, Original Intent: the Courts, the Constitution, and Religion, (Wall Builders, P.O. Box 397; Aledo, Texas, 76008), p. 31)
    3. Justice James Wilson “(1742 to 1798) one of only six people who signed up both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. He was a law professor, nominated by President George Washington as the original justice on the United States Supreme Court and in 1792 he was co-author of America’s first legal commentaries on the Constitution.”
      1. “The first and governing maxim in the interpretation of a statute is to discover the meaning of those who made it.”(David Barton, Original Intent: the Courts, the Constitution, and Religion, (Wall Builders, P.O. Box 397; Aledo, Texas, 76008), p. 22)
carm.org

Quotes on the Original Intent of the Constitution

The original intent of the Constitution of the United States is how it is intended to be understood, not in the modernistic reinterpretation.
carm.org carm.org
 
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Your destiny is not a matter of chance; it’s a matter of choice. Many people have the right aims in life—they just never get around to pulling the trigger. When you determine what you want, you have made the most important decision in your life. You have to know what you want in order to attain it.

“Commit your way to the LORD, trust also in Him, and He will do it” (Ps. 37:5).
 
Predestined said:
Your destiny is not a matter of chance; it’s a matter of choice. Many people have the right aims in life—they just never get around to pulling the trigger. When you determine what you want, you have made the most important decision in your life. You have to know what you want in order to attain it.
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What book of the Bible are you quoting from?
Or are you claiming to be a Gnostic?
 
ReverendRV said:
I would say Arminians and Calvinists are closer than they think; and closer than some will allow them to be...

Won't you try to allow it?
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There is a huge gulf between believing that Jesus died to save his people from their sins, and believing that Jesus died to attempt (and often fail) to save every single person from his sins. There are other gulfs as well...
 
Predestined said:
Your destiny is not a matter of chance; it’s a matter of choice.
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That's right: God's choice.

Rom. 9:15,16 (KJV)
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Many people have the right aims in life—they just never get around to pulling the trigger.
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This is from the fiction section...

Here's the truth.

Rom. 3:9-19 (KJV)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

When you determine what you want, you have made the most important decision in your life. You have to know what you want in order to attain it.

“Commit your way to the LORD, trust also in Him, and He will do it” (Ps. 37:5).
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What the unregenerate sinner wants ... is to sin. What he does not want is God or the gospel (Rom. 8:7,8; John 3:19,20; 1 Cor. 2:14, etc.).

You quoted Ps. 37:5, which is, of course, only true for believers, not unregenerate, light-hating, hostile-to-God, gospel-rejecting sinners.

You need to stop making things up, and start posting what the Bible says.
 
David1701 said:
That's right: God's choice.

Rom. 9:15,16 (KJV)
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


This is from the fiction section...

Here's the truth.

Rom. 3:9-19 (KJV)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


What the unregenerate sinner wants ... is to sin. What he does not want is God or the gospel (Rom. 8:7,8; John 3:19,20; 1 Cor. 2:14, etc.).

You quoted Ps. 37:5, which is, of course, only true for believers, not unregenerate, light-hating, hostile-to-God, gospel-rejecting sinners.

You need to stop making things up, and start posting what the Bible says.
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This is what the bible states

Deuteronomy 30:10–19 (KJV 1900) — 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 3:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
fltom said:
This is what the bible states

Deuteronomy 30:10–19 (KJV 1900) — 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 3:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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Amazing how the unregenerate in the OT were given the choice by their free will to either obey God or not obey Him. And the misnomer that the unregenerate cannot hear from God or that God cannot talk to them without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is yet another misnomer.

Just look at Cain and his interaction with God- post fall. So much for TD and mans inability and IR.

Genesis 4
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.


6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”


8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.


9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

“I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”


10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”


13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”


15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.
 
fltom said:
This is what the bible states

Deuteronomy 30:10–19 (KJV 1900) — 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 3:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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Amen brother. This team thing is a great idea. :)

Yours Truly, Team Truth !

hope this helps !!!
 
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