Do Raptured Saints Return With Christ as Part of His Army

[Jack Hammer]

There's lots of evidence that this army is an army of ANGELS and NOT people or 'resurrected saints'. Matthew 25:31 tells us that Christ will return with angels and SAINTS are NOT mentioned.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mathew 16:27 Jesus says, For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

In Mathew 24:31 Jesus says, And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Mathew 13:49 Jesus says, So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just. (This is the judgment that determines WHO enters the 1,000 years)

In Mathew 25:31 Jesus says, When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

In Mark 8:38 Jesus said, For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

In Luke 9:26 Jesus said, For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7 Paul says, And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.

1 Thes. 4:16 Paul says, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel...

1 Thes. 3:13...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

SAINTS

The KJV uses the word saints. Several other translations as well as the interlinear uses the words "HOLY ONES" NOT saints. Strong's uses the word hagios but if you look at the Textus Receptus it uses the word 'hagion' or 'Holy ones'.

Strong's differentiates between the two but for some reason always uses the word 'hagios.

39. hagion hag'-ee-on neuter of 40; a sacred thing (i.e. spot):--holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.

40. hagios hag'-ee-os from hagos (an awful thing) (compare 53, 2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

In JUDE 14 - "...the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints", the KJV uses the word saints, the interlinear uses the words, "holy ones" NOT saints. The NIV, NLT, CSB, ESV, NASB, NET, RSV, and several others all use 'HOLY ONES'.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. (holy ones)

According Vines Expository Definition of New Testament words - (bold is mine)

SAINTS is an adjective - used without a noun it is translated "saints" referring to people in Matthew 27:52; Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; 15:25-26; Ephesians 3:8; 4:12; Philippians 1:1; 4:21). "Saints" refers to angels in 1 Thessalonians 3:13; and Jude 1:14. "The holy one" refers to Jesus in Mark 1:24 and Acts 3:14. When used as an adjective with a noun it is always translated "holy". It used of men in Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; and 2 Peter 3:2. It is used of angels at Jesus' second coming in Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38; and Luke 9:26. It is used of Jesus in Acts 4:27; and 4:30. It is used of the Holy Spirit in Mark 1:8; 13:11; Luke 4:1; and Acts 2:4.

That may help us determine if the army in Rev. 19:20 includes resurrected saints! We know that angels are mentioned several places as returning with Christ so in Revelation 19:20 they ARE, I believe, God's returning army of ANGELS! Regardless of the rapture position one holds, the battle is AFTER the resurrection, that in no way means the resurrected saints RETURN with Christ and his angels because SAINTS are angels - NOT people - and people are NOT part of God's army.

I conclude that in the verses Christ' return is mentioned, 'hagion' is correct and literally means "the holy (...)" AND always refers to "the holy angels."

 

[John Prewett]

After having been beheaded, Jesus's Saints will return with Jesus to REIGN WITH CHRIST as per Revelation 19

 

[Timtofly]

The Second Coming is for the church. They have to go up, before they can be an army. The battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. It is the battle of Armageddon.

 

[John Prewett]

The Second Coming is for the church. They have to go up, before they can be an army. The battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. It is the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 19 reveals the ONLY coming of Jesus yet to come.
The Saints get to heaven upon being beheaded .... leaving behind a canal of blood 186 miles long (As reveale in Rev 14)

 

[SteveB]

There's lots of evidence that this army is an army of ANGELS and NOT people or 'resurrected saints'. Matthew 25:31 tells us that Christ will return with angels and SAINTS are NOT mentioned.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mathew 16:27 Jesus says, For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

In Mathew 24:31 Jesus says, And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Mathew 13:49 Jesus says, So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just. (This is the judgment that determines WHO enters the 1,000 years)

In Mathew 25:31 Jesus says, When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

In Mark 8:38 Jesus said, For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

In Luke 9:26 Jesus said, For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7 Paul says, And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.

1 Thes. 4:16 Paul says, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel...

1 Thes. 3:13...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

SAINTS

The KJV uses the word saints. Several other translations as well as the interlinear uses the words "HOLY ONES" NOT saints. Strong's uses the word hagios but if you look at the Textus Receptus it uses the word 'hagion' or 'Holy ones'.

Strong's differentiates between the two but for some reason always uses the word 'hagios.

39. hagion hag'-ee-on neuter of 40; a sacred thing (i.e. spot):--holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.

40. hagios hag'-ee-os from hagos (an awful thing) (compare 53, 2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

In JUDE 14 - "...the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints", the KJV uses the word saints, the interlinear uses the words, "holy ones" NOT saints. The NIV, NLT, CSB, ESV, NASB, NET, RSV, and several others all use 'HOLY ONES'.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. (holy ones)

According Vines Expository Definition of New Testament words - (bold is mine)

SAINTS is an adjective - used without a noun it is translated "saints" referring to people in Matthew 27:52; Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; 15:25-26; Ephesians 3:8; 4:12; Philippians 1:1; 4:21). "Saints" refers to angels in 1 Thessalonians 3:13; and Jude 1:14. "The holy one" refers to Jesus in Mark 1:24 and Acts 3:14. When used as an adjective with a noun it is always translated "holy". It used of men in Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; and 2 Peter 3:2. It is used of angels at Jesus' second coming in Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38; and Luke 9:26. It is used of Jesus in Acts 4:27; and 4:30. It is used of the Holy Spirit in Mark 1:8; 13:11; Luke 4:1; and Acts 2:4.

That may help us determine if the army in Rev. 19:20 includes resurrected saints! We know that angels are mentioned several places as returning with Christ so in Revelation 19:20 they ARE, I believe, God's returning army of ANGELS! Regardless of the rapture position one holds, the battle is AFTER the resurrection, that in no way means the resurrected saints RETURN with Christ and his angels because SAINTS are angels - NOT people - and people are NOT part of God's army.

I conclude that in the verses Christ' return is mentioned, 'hagion' is correct and literally means "the holy (...)" AND always refers to "the holy angels."

So, the saints don't join him in the battle of the ages?
So.... we wait back in heaven, while he comes down and kicks butt?

 

[John Prewett]

The Saints (note the white linen) follow Jesus to the earth and then are seated on thrones to "reign with Christ" for a 1000 years as per Revelation 20:4.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 19 reveals the ONLY coming of Jesus yet to come.
The Saints get to heaven upon being beheaded .... leaving behind a canal of blood 186 miles long (As reveale in Rev 14)

Revelation 6:12-17

12 "Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

This happens before the 7th Trumpet. All humanity will see God on the throne and the Lamb come to earth, and hide themselves just like Adam and Eve tried to hide from God. This is when the Lamb returns to finish the work started in the 1st century. The 144k will be chosen and follow His leadership in reaping the harvest. They are on earth, and go wherever the Lamb goes.

Matthew 24:29-30

29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,
the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.
30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.

The 6th Seal comes after the 1st through 4th Seals. All points of the tribulation of those days.

 

[Timtofly]

The Saints (note the white linen) follow Jesus to the earth and then are seated on thrones to "reign with Christ" for a 1000 years as per Revelation 20:4.

How can the beheaded saints be resurrected in Revelation 20:4 if they are the ones on the thrones? It is the church in Paradise sitting on the thrones, judging those beheaded who are resurrected, and recieve incorruptible bodies and they rule and reign on earth with Christ. The church is reigning from Paradise.

 

[John Prewett]

How can the beheaded saints be resurrected in Revelation 20:4 if they are the ones on the thrones? It is the church in Paradise sitting on the thrones, judging those beheaded who are resurrected, and recieve incorruptible bodies and they rule and reign on earth with Christ. The church is reigning from Paradise.

Upon being beheaded, the saints are transported to heaven (the sea of glass) as we see them in Revelation 15. A bit later the saints (in white linen and now called an "army") follow Jesus back to earth .... where the saints will "reign with Christ" for 1000 years as per Rev 20:4.
It's simple if one HEEDS THE REVELATION.

 

[Timtofly]

Upon being beheaded, the saints are transported to heaven (the sea of glass) as we see them in Revelation 15. A bit later the saints (in white linen and now called an "army") follow Jesus back to earth .... where the saints will "reign with Christ" for 1000 years as per Rev 20:4.
It's simple if one HEEDS THE REVELATION.

That is not exactly what is said. Those who are beheaded may show up on the sea of glass, but they are not those in white. They do not have a body until resurrection in Revelation 20:4, after they are judged.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.

These are not judging, they are being judged:

Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge.

After death comes judgment.

 

[John Prewett]

.......... and His wife has made herself ready.
8 It was granted her to be arrayed in fine linen,
clean and white.”
Fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
............................................
14 The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and the authority to judge was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years Rev 20:4

It ain't complicated. The saints get beheaded and go to heaven. Later they follow Jesus back to earth. Then they reign with Christ.
I've no more to say to you.

 

[Timtofly]

.......... and His wife has made herself ready.
8 It was granted her to be arrayed in fine linen,
clean and white.”
Fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
............................................
14 The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and the authority to judge was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years Rev 20:4

It ain't complicated. The saints get beheaded and go to heaven. Later they follow Jesus back to earth. Then they reign with Christ.
I've no more to say to you.

Then you have exchanged Paul's rapture for Satan's beheadings.

I know it is not complicated. It is twisted. Even Paul claims the church is gone by the 7th Trumpet. It is being caught up, not cut up. The 7th Trumpet involves Satan being in control, not God, nor Christ. Either one gets their head removed thus physically dead with the head in one place and the body in another. Or they take the mark 666, and eternally damned. How is cutting one's head off meeting Christ in the air and being changed?

Your verse about the bride making herself ready leaves out getting one's head chopped of as part of the process.

 

[John Prewett]

What you call "Paul's rapture" happened around the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

Paul knew of and wrote of the end of the era of ancient Israel. The era of ancient Israel ended around 70 AD.

Around 70 AD, Around the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple, Jesus returned in power to "snatch away" the Christians of the era of ancient Israel. Around 70 AD God's Revelation was given to humanity and then began the Revelation era.

Paul knew nothing and wrote nothing of OUR end time scenario. ONLY the Revelation reveals OUR end time.

 

[Timtofly]

What you call "Paul's rapture" happened around the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

Paul knew of and wrote of the end of the era of ancient Israel. The era of ancient Israel ended around 70 AD.

Around 70 AD, Around the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple, Jesus returned in power to "snatch away" the Christians of the era of ancient Israel. Around 70 AD God's Revelation was given to humanity and then began the Revelation era.

Paul knew nothing and wrote nothing of OUR end time scenario. ONLY the Revelation reveals OUR end time.

So this is the Third Coming?

 

[John Prewett]

Well, if you count His coming as a baby as the first coming.
and, His coming in power at the end of the era of ancient Israel as His 2nd coming.
Then His Revelation 19 coming would be His 3rd (and final) coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, if you count His coming as a baby as the first coming.
and, His coming in power at the end of the era of ancient Israel as His 2nd coming.
Then His Revelation 19 coming would be His 3rd (and final) coming.

There was no historical coming in 70AD. That was the end of the OT era.


The whole of Jesus' life was the first coming.

The whole of The Lamb on earth for months and then 1000 years is the Second Coming.

 

[John Prewett]

So you think Jesus mis-spoke to the hi priest. Have a nice day.

 

[Timtofly]

So you think Jesus mis-spoke to the hi priest. Have a nice day.

Do we have the whole life history of the HP written down we can review? Anything else is guessing.

 

[John Prewett]

According to Jesus the HP lived long enough to SEE Jesus return in power.
We don't need the whole life history of the HP in order to trust that Jesus word to him was true.
It's a matter of trusting the scripture word of Jesus.

Nothing personal. The whole 'preTrib' camp is screwed up about this. Has been since Scofield published his preTrib false doctrine.

 

[SteveB]

According to Jesus the HP lived long enough to SEE Jesus return in power.
We don't need the whole life history of the HP in order to trust that Jesus word to him was true.
It's a matter of trusting the scripture word of Jesus.

Nothing personal. The whole 'preTrib' camp is screwed up about this. Has been since Scofield published his preTrib false doctrine.

Well.... you're more than welcome to stick around for what Jesus said would be the worst time in history--- both past and future.
Jesus however did invite us to get out.

Matthew 24

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.​

It'll be so bad that unless Jesus were to deliberately intervene, there would be no survivors. Period!

Luke 21

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

If he's taking us out of here, I for one don't want to be where he doesn't want me, and do want to be where he does.

I think an even more important question is---
Just what do you think the great tribulation period is?