Do Raptured Saints Return With Christ as Part of His Army

Neither Paul nor Jesus lied. The predictions of Paul and Jesus (in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 came to pass around 70 AD.

Humanity has been in the Revelation era since the Revelation was promulgated around 70 AD.

The Revelation reveals OUR 'end time'.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Neither Paul nor Jesus lied. The predictions of Paul and Jesus (in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 came to pass around 70 AD.

Humanity has been in the Revelation era since the Revelation was promulgated around 70 AD.

The Revelation reveals OUR 'end time'.
Ok.
So if neither lied, then why would you exclude them from your ideas, and focus solely on Revelation?

I'm presently reading Revelation, and this is my 5th time through in the past few months.
I heard about a guy last year who recommended reading bible books 6 times in a row to facilitate a greater understanding and recall.
I decided to go ahead and do it with Revelation.

I've learned that there are numerous references in Revelation that tie back to the old testament.

One well-known teacher with whom I've been familiar since 1980 said that there are over 800 allusions to the old testament in the book of Revelation.
So, it's pretty clear that narrowing your focus on the book of Revelation is an unhealthy way to do it.

Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Micah, Malachi, Jeremiah, Psalms, and numerous other books are incorporated into Revelation.....
 
You'll probably deny this ... but you denigrate\downgrade the Revelation. You don't grasp the supreme signicance of the Revelation.
ONLY the Revelation reveals and enables one to understand OUR 'end time.'
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You'll probably deny this ... but you denigrate\downgrade the Revelation. You don't grasp the supreme signicance of the Revelation.
ONLY the Revelation reveals and enables one to understand OUR 'end time.'
Wow.
And only through the sum total of the whole bible is Revelation understood.
 
Valuable information is throughout the Bible.
But one does not have to have read all of the Bible to be blessed by heeding the Revelation.

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written in it, for the time is near.
Rev 1:3
 

Timtofly

Member
According to Jesus the HP lived long enough to SEE Jesus return in power.
We don't need the whole life history of the HP in order to trust that Jesus word to him was true.
It's a matter of trusting the scripture word of Jesus.

Nothing personal. The whole 'preTrib' camp is screwed up about this. Has been since Scofield published his preTrib false doctrine.
So it does not even matter what Josephus recorded or history recorded about the HP. You are sticking to your own facts, and ignoring any other account?

What does all this have to do with pre-trib?
 
Right, it really does not even matter what Josephus recorded or history recorded about the HP.

It has to do with "preTrib" because the preTrib camp erroneously contends Paul's predictions were to be fulfilled in our 2000 year later era.
Jesus's words to the HP show Paul's predictions (and Jesus in Matt 24 and Rev 1:7) happened at the end of the era of ancient Israel.
The end of ancient Israel took place in 70AD, when the HP must have been an old man.
 

Timtofly

Member
Well all views think the trib is going to happen soon, not just pre-trib. If the tribulation already started, it is too late to be pre-trib. The Second Coming would have already happened.
 
Has Jesus promised to whisk His Church to heaven before the BEAST emerges? That's the issue/question.

And the true answer is:

7 "It was granted to him to wage war with the saints and to overcome them". Revelation 13
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Valuable information is throughout the Bible.
But one does not have to have read all of the Bible to be blessed by heeding the Revelation.

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written in it, for the time is near.
Rev 1:3
And this passage is why I'm presently on the 5th reading of Revelation in the past several weeks.
 

Timtofly

Member
Has Jesus promised to whisk His Church to heaven before the BEAST emerges? That's the issue/question.

And the true answer is:

7 "It was granted to him to wage war with the saints and to overcome them". Revelation 13
So the 144k are defeated? Are they killed?
 

jamesh

Active member
The Second Coming is for the church. They have to go up, before they can be an army. The battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. It is the battle of Armageddon.
First of all the starter of this thread "assumes" there will be a rapture of the Church before the second coming. Secondly, he has not returned to the scene of the crime so to speak after his initial thread/post.

Now, you said, "The Second coming is for the church." But what did Jesus say on the matter? At Matthew 24:3 His disciples ask Him a very specific question? "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN will these things be, and what will be the SIGN of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD?"

Now, Jesus goes on the explain all the things that are going to happen from verses 4-14. At verse 15 Jesus says, "Therefore." when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand), vs16, then those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;" In other words, it's time to get out of Dodge. Verses 16-28 is describing what will happen including people will be looking for the Christ/Messiah and believing false teachers.

Now for vs29, "But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS etc. The sign of the Son of Man (vs30) will appear in the sky. And we will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." So how is it that these events will happen after the church is "so-called" raptured? Hebrews 10:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time or for deliverance WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN, to those who eagerly await Him." In short, there is only one second coming and it is after the tribulation. I can offer more proof that my position is sound and Biblical. And yes, I know about "70AD."

In Him,
herman
 

Timtofly

Member
The Second Coming is after the tribulation of those days. The battle of Armageddon is not a coming for any one. It is a battle.

The church is gathered and completed at the Second Coming. The church being those covered by the Atonement of the Cross from all time, starting with Abel and all those in Hebrews 11.

Armageddon is still a battle, not a gathering together.

The Second Coming happens before Satan is even given control.

The Second Coming is not for Satan's leftovers. Satan gets the leftovers after the final harvest, after the Second Coming of Christ to gather the final harvest.

The 4th Seal is the tribulation "of those days". The 4th Seal has nothing to do with Satan at all. If Satan comes forward and starts a war, famine or such, the battle of Armageddon is not that war, prior to the 4th Seal, nor the 4th Seal. The final harvest comes first, and Jesus Christ is walking around on earth way before Armageddon. Armageddon cannot be any of the Seals. But Christ comes in the 6th Seal, because all humanity can see the Lamb and God on the throne come to earth, and they are running to the mountains to hide. They are not getting ready for a battle.
 
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Yogi

New Member
We must take notice of Rev. 19:8- And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The white attire is only given to the bride at this late stage, not before. Was she able to "enter" without the wedding attire? Where O where could she have been?
 

Timtofly

Member
We must take notice of Rev. 19:8- And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The white attire is only given to the bride at this late stage, not before. Was she able to "enter" without the wedding attire? Where O where could she have been?
Enter what? Those in Paradise have been there since the Cross. People arrive daily. Where else do they go?

The church is complete and glorified at the 6th Seal. The Trumpets are for the separation of the sheep from the goats. The church and sheep are not the same people not found in the same location, nor even time for that matter.
 

Yogi

New Member
Enter what? Those in Paradise have been there since the Cross. People arrive daily. Where else do they go?

The church is complete and glorified at the 6th Seal. The Trumpets are for the separation of the sheep from the goats. The church and sheep are not the same people not found in the same location, nor even time for that matter.
So people can enter without the proper attire? No. We enter as Jesus did -in a resurrected body, unless raptured.
I understand your point about the sixth seal. The sixth seal IS the 7th trumpet, AND rev. 19:1.
I disagree about the sheep and church. There is ONE body, ONE lord, ONE church, ONE Spirit etc. etc. etc.
 

Timtofly

Member
The 6th Seal cannot be the 7th Trumpet, because there is still the 7th Seal. Also there are 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders to go through before the 7th Trumpet.

The wedding attire was given at the 5th Seal. The church is and remains in Paradise. The Kingdom on earth for 1000 years does not empty Paradise. The sheep and wheat populate the earth. There is no part of the body or church left on earth, nor split from Paradise.
 
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