Do Raptured Saints Return With Christ as Part of His Army

Yogi

New Member
The 6th Seal cannot be the 7th Trumpet, because there is still the 7th Seal. Also there are 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders to go through before the 7th Trumpet.

The wedding attire was given at the 5th Seal. The church is and remains in Paradise. The Kingdom on earth for 1000 years does not empty Paradise. The sheep and wheat populate the earth. There is no part of the body or church left on earth, nor split from Paradise.
You are still reading Revelation in linear mode. It is a collection of visions where some sequences can be found. But the way you are describing it, we would have to expect the mountains and islands to be moved away twice and on and on.

The wedding attire is specifically written in Rev. 19, period. the fifth seal main subject matter is martyrs.

Also you cannot get away with simply naming believers sheep and wheat in order to somehow declare that their treatment will be different from ALL believers. Saying that believers will not receive ALL that the Gospel provides for ALL believers is...another gospel.
 

Timtofly

Member
You are still reading Revelation in linear mode. It is a collection of visions where some sequences can be found. But the way you are describing it, we would have to expect the mountains and islands to be moved away twice and on and on.

The wedding attire is specifically written in Rev. 19, period. the fifth seal main subject matter is martyrs.

Also you cannot get away with simply naming believers sheep and wheat in order to somehow declare that their treatment will be different from ALL believers. Saying that believers will not receive ALL that the Gospel provides for ALL believers is...another gospel.
By the end of the judgments all mountains are gone, yes.

The 5th Seal covers all martyrs from Stephen until today. Are you going to separate the church by those defined as martyrs yet complain about another Gospel?

The sheep are not believers nor saints. The sheep are living humans not part of the church. The Gospel is no longer relative after the 6th Seal. God is being selective on who He lets reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. These resurrected humans, for they will die, are going to populate the earth again in the millennium. The glorified church will be in Paradise and will no longer procreate. Jesus said they are like the Angels now in that regard.

So this is not another Gospel. It is about dying and being resurrected in incorruptible bodies, because there is no more sin in the next millennium. Sin is removed from the earth. The Gospel is no longer even relevant. Christ will rule with an iron rod. Disobedience will be instant Death. How would you describe new humans born without a sin nature? They are born from parents who had died, yet were resurrected free from Adam's sinful nature. The Bible does not cover such a scenario except, Cain and Abel. Adam had never died and been resurrected either. John did not give us much details on the millennium, yet this time was prophesied about by Isaiah.
 

Yogi

New Member
By the end of the judgments all mountains are gone, yes.

The 5th Seal covers all martyrs from Stephen until today. Are you going to separate the church by those defined as martyrs yet complain about another Gospel?

The sheep are not believers nor saints. The sheep are living humans not part of the church. The Gospel is no longer relative after the 6th Seal. God is being selective on who He lets reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. These resurrected humans, for they will die, are going to populate the earth again in the millennium. The glorified church will be in Paradise and will no longer procreate. Jesus said they are like the Angels now in that regard.

So this is not another Gospel. It is about dying and being resurrected in incorruptible bodies, because there is no more sin in the next millennium. Sin is removed from the earth. The Gospel is no longer even relevant. Christ will rule with an iron rod. Disobedience will be instant Death. How would you describe new humans born without a sin nature? They are born from parents who had died, yet were resurrected free from Adam's sinful nature. The Bible does not cover such a scenario except, Cain and Abel. Adam had never died and been resurrected either. John did not give us much details on the millennium, yet this time was prophesied about by Isaiah.
You need to read Matt. 25...
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:...
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

According to the Gospel, only the blood of Jesus makes one righteous so they can have eternal life. The NT shows that the "saints" are washed in His blood as well.
 

Timtofly

Member
You need to read Matt. 25...
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:...
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

According to the Gospel, only the blood of Jesus makes one righteous so they can have eternal life. The NT shows that the "saints" are washed in His blood as well.
This takes place at the opening of the 6th Seal. That is the start of the final harvest. The final harvest is for the sheep and wheat. Not the Steward of the vineyard.
 

Yogi

New Member
This takes place at the opening of the 6th Seal. That is the start of the final harvest. The final harvest is for the sheep and wheat. Not the Steward of the vineyard.
Don't you realize that the sheep/goats is directly related to the fish net, so is the wheat. Is what happens at the resurrection!
Look at the above post and see these go into ETERNAL LIFE. The others go to EVERLASTING FIRE!
 

Timtofly

Member
Don't you realize that the sheep/goats is directly related to the fish net, so is the wheat. Is what happens at the resurrection!
Look at the above post and see these go into ETERNAL LIFE. The others go to EVERLASTING FIRE!
Why are you adding the concept of resurrection to Matthew 25? The Resurrection was at the Cross. No one seems to acknowledge that bodily physical resurrections started at the Cross. They have been non-stop for almost 1991 years. God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. One is either physically alive in Paradise right now, or alive on earth. The dead will stay dead until the GWT. The separation of the sheep from the goats are living humans on earth. The sheep will be immediately given life at the start of the Millennium. The goats will be eternally damned in Death. Their names having been removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Resurrection is an ongoing process. The separation of the sheep and goats is not an ongoing process of the church. The sheep and goats can only be in effect while Jesus Christ the Lamb of God is physically present on earth at the Second Coming. The Trumpets and Thunders cover the years that the Lamb and God on the throne are present on earth. They come in the 6th Seal and are still present at the 7th Trumpet. They are here for the living, not the dead. People will physically die and be sent (harvested) to their eternal destination during this time.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
The Second Coming is for the church. They have to go up, before they can be an army. The battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming. It is the battle of Armageddon.
Jesus Christ returns to the battle of Armageddon in destruction, this is the second coming
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Don't you realize that the sheep/goats is directly related to the fish net, so is the wheat. Is what happens at the resurrection!
Look at the above post and see these go into ETERNAL LIFE. The others go to EVERLASTING FIRE!
Thats correct Matthew 25 sheep/goats is nothing more than a parable of the Great White Throne judgement seen in Rev 20:11-15
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Well.... you're more than welcome to stick around for what Jesus said would be the worst time in history--- both past and future.
Jesus however did invite us to get out.

Matthew 24

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.​

It'll be so bad that unless Jesus were to deliberately intervene, there would be no survivors. Period!

Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

If he's taking us out of here, I for one don't want to be where he doesn't want me, and do want to be where he does.

I think an even more important question is---
Just what do you think the great tribulation period is?
There is not one scripture in Gods Holy Words, that teach of a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church to heaven, not a one.

The 3.5 year tribulation will be in the hands of the (Two Witnesses) seen in Rev Chapter 11, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt + some (All Plagues As Often As They Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

My Lord Jesus Christ Is In Control!

Revelation 9:2-6KJV

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues Upon The Antichrist And "His" Wicked Kingdom Followers, Just Like In Egypt!

Revelation 16:1-11KJV

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 
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Timtofly

Member
Jesus Christ returns to the battle of Armageddon in destruction, this is the second coming
He only left for 42 months. It is not a third coming either. 3.5 years will be Satan's Stewardship. Christ is not co-ruling with Satan. Coming back in 1260 days is not a major return. It is just removing Satan and the last of Adam's descendants who have taken the mark of the beast. The one hour battle of the 10 kings of the earth.
 

Timtofly

Member
There is not one scripture in Gods Holy Words, that teach of a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church to heaven, not a one.

The 3.5 year tribulation will be in the hands of the (Two Witnesses) seen in Rev Chapter 11, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt + some (All Plagues As Often As They Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

My Lord Jesus Christ Is In Control!

Revelation 9:2-6KJV

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues Upon The Antichrist And "His" Wicked Kingdom Followers, Just Like In Egypt!

Revelation 16:1-11KJV

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
There are only two literal humans here. The church left years prior. The Second Coming already happened. The church is more than just two literal humans. Surely more living church members will be alive at the Second Coming than just 2.

The church was judged on the Cross. There is no mention any where in Scripture that claims the church will be judged during the Trumpets and Thunders. Christ returns in the 6th Seal before the 7th Seal, and before a Trumpet or a Thunder.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
There are only two literal humans here. The church left years prior. The Second Coming already happened. The church is more than just two literal humans. Surely more living church members will be alive at the Second Coming than just 2.

The church was judged on the Cross. There is no mention any where in Scripture that claims the church will be judged during the Trumpets and Thunders. Christ returns in the 6th Seal before the 7th Seal, and before a Trumpet or a Thunder.
The Second Coming Already Happened?

Your claim is false, and would be considered heresy by many.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
There is not one scripture in Gods Holy Words, that teach of a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church to heaven, not a one.

The 3.5 year tribulation will be in the hands of the (Two Witnesses) seen in Rev Chapter 11, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt + some (All Plagues As Often As They Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

My Lord Jesus Christ Is In Control!

Revelation 9:2-6KJV

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues Upon The Antichrist And "His" Wicked Kingdom Followers, Just Like In Egypt!

Revelation 16:1-11KJV

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Well, as I stated--- you keep working to make sure you exclude yourself from going when the Bridegroom comes.
The rest of us are going to focus on making sure our lamps are filled with oil, and we trim the lamps when the call comes.

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.​
32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”​
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”​
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”​


As Jesus said... I think I'm going to focus on watching, so that when he comes, I'll be ready.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Well, as I stated--- you keep working to make sure you exclude yourself from going when the Bridegroom comes.
The rest of us are going to focus on making sure our lamps are filled with oil, and we trim the lamps when the call comes.

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.​
32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”​
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”​
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”​


As Jesus said... I think I'm going to focus on watching, so that when he comes, I'll be ready.
Your response with "Watch" has absolutely nothing to do with the false claim by many, of a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven.

The Sealed Church on earth will escape the plagues during the tribulation, and the final hour of earth's temptation

The (Two Witnesses) Rev 11 is gonna be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the sealed Church is protected.

Will the Sealed Church be tormented for five months as seen below in Rev 9:3-6, 100% (NO) only those without God's Seal.

Ephesians 4:30KJV

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 9:3-6KJV

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

God's protection of the Church during the final hour of earth's temptation, enter your dwelling and shut the door, just like the passover in Egypt.

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
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Timtofly

Member
The Second Coming Already Happened?

Your claim is false, and would be considered heresy by many.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Yes the Second Coming happened prior to the 1260 days of the two witnesses. The Second Coming happened prior to, or immediately at the point the 144k are sealed by the angels.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Yes the Second Coming happened prior to the 1260 days of the two witnesses. The Second Coming happened prior to, or immediately at the point the 144k are sealed by the angels.
I strongly disagree with your claims :)

The second coming is a (Future) event that takes place immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This second coming takes place "Shortly" after the (Two Witnesses) are raised to heaven seen below in Rev 11, at the sound of the 7th Angel (The End)

Revelation 11:1-15KJV

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 10:6-7KJV

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished
, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Your response with "Watch" has absolutely nothing to do with the false claim by many, of a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven.

The Sealed Church on earth will escape the plagues during the tribulation, and the final hour of earth's temptation

The (Two Witnesses) Rev 11 is gonna be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the sealed Church is protected.

Will the Sealed Church be tormented for five months as seen below in Rev 9:3-6, 100% (NO) only those without God's Seal.

Ephesians 4:30KJV

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 9:3-6KJV

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

God's protection of the Church during the final hour of earth's temptation, enter your dwelling and shut the door, just like the passover in Egypt.

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Ah, so you are acknowledging the pre-tribulation rapture...
I'm starting to wonder if you actually understand what you're saying, because you can't seem to make up your mind.
What you've described here IS the pre-trib rapture.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Ah, so you are acknowledging the pre-tribulation rapture...
I'm starting to wonder if you actually understand what you're saying, because you can't seem to make up your mind.
What you've described here IS the pre-trib rapture.
Misrepresentation of my statement and claims, as previously stated, a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven is found no place in the Holy Scripture, and you haven't even hinted at a verse that you would claim does, its my opinion your silence is due to the fact it dosent exist, waiting? :)

The Church will be present upon earth to witness the Antichrist revealed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, and the second coming of Jesus Christ Luke 21:25-28

The Church Will Be On Earth To Witness The Antichrist Revealed

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3KJV

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Church Will Be On Earth To Witness The Second Coming

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The second coming is a (Future) event that takes place immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This second coming takes place "Shortly" after the (Two Witnesses) are raised to heaven seen below in Rev 11, at the sound of the 7th Angel (The End)

Revelation 11:1-15KJV

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 10:6-7KJV

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished
, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Misrepresentation of my statement and claims, as previously stated, a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven is found no place in the Holy Scripture, and you haven't even hinted at a verse that you would claim does, its my opinion your silence is due to the fact it dosent exist, waiting? :)

The Church will be present upon earth to witness the Antichrist revealed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, and the second coming of Jesus Christ Luke 21:25-28

The Church Will Be On Earth To Witness The Antichrist Revealed

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3KJV

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Church Will Be On Earth To Witness The Second Coming

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The second coming is a (Future) event that takes place immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This second coming takes place "Shortly" after the (Two Witnesses) are raised to heaven seen below in Rev 11, at the sound of the 7th Angel (The End)

Revelation 11:1-15KJV

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 10:6-7KJV

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished
, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Yes, actually it is described in the bible.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Yes, actually it is described in the bible.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Greatly Appreciate If You Would Provide The Book And Chapter To Your Scripture Quoted, Common Courtesy, Thanks :)

Scripture "Clearly Teaches" That Your Claim Of A (Pre-Trib Rapture) Of The Church To Heaven Is Seen In 1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Is False.

1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Represents The Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection, Final Judgement, There Is No (Pre-Tribulation Rapture) seen as you claim.

1.) Is The (Second Coming) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below 100% Yes!

2. Is a (Resurrection Of The Believer) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

3. Does this (Resurrection) take place on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24, John 5:28-29 100% Yes!

4. Is (The Last Day) the time of (Final Judgement) as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
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