Do Raptured Saints Return With Christ as Part of His Army

SteveB

Well-known member
Greatly Appreciate If You Would Provide The Book And Chapter To Your Scripture Quoted, Common Courtesy, Thanks :)

Scripture "Clearly Teaches" That Your Claim Of A (Pre-Trib Rapture) Of The Church To Heaven Is Seen In 1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Is False.

1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Represents The Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection, Final Judgement, There Is No (Pre-Tribulation Rapture) seen as you claim.

1.) Is The (Second Coming) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below 100% Yes!

2. Is a (Resurrection Of The Believer) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

3. Does this (Resurrection) take place on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24, John 5:28-29 100% Yes!

4. Is (The Last Day) the time of (Final Judgement) as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
You're still running around in circles trying to prove your presupposition.

And ironically, you actually proved that there is a pre-trib rapture above, in post # 54.

So, you go work through the passages that you posted, and more importantly, why don't you just post the definition of what you think the pre-trib rapture is.

I'm pretty sure that the problem here isn't the biblical definition/narrative of the pre-trib rapture, but your idea of the pre-trib.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
You're still running around in circles trying to prove your presupposition.

And ironically, you actually proved that there is a pre-trib rapture above, in post # 54.

So, you go work through the passages that you posted, and more importantly, why don't you just post the definition of what you think the pre-trib rapture is.

I'm pretty sure that the problem here isn't the biblical definition/narrative of the pre-trib rapture, but your idea of the pre-trib.
I'm Quite Sure That You Deny Gods Last Day Resurrection, Seen In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Before Your Eyes Below.

Mesmerized By John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield's Dispensationalism.

I Was Deceived For 20 Years, Sitting In The Pew Shouting Amen To The False Teachings, I Didn't Have A Clue 😵

Scripture "Clearly Teaches" That Your Claim Of A (Pre-Trib Rapture) Of The Church To Heaven Is Seen In 1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Is False.

1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Represents The Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection, Final Judgement, There Is No (Pre-Tribulation Rapture) seen as you claim.

1.) Is The (Second Coming) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below 100% Yes!

2. Is a (Resurrection Of The Believer) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

3. Does this (Resurrection) take place on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24, John 5:28-29 100% Yes!

4. Is (The Last Day) the time of (Final Judgement) as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
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Timtofly

Member
I strongly disagree with your claims :)

The second coming is a (Future) event that takes place immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This second coming takes place "Shortly" after the (Two Witnesses) are raised to heaven seen below in Rev 11, at the sound of the 7th Angel (The End)

Revelation 11:1-15KJV

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 10:6-7KJV

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished
, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Yes after the tribulation of the last 1990 years. After the tribulation of those days. Those days are about ready to abruptly be dissolved at the Second Coming.

Then there will be unprecedented tribulation during the Trumpets and Thunders. God on the throne and the Lamb will be present on the earth.

All of man's works will be burned up and destroyed.

The battle of Armageddon happens about 10 hours after the two witnesses come back to life. They arise early Sunday morning. The battle of Armageddon will be between 5pm and 6pm Sunday evening. 6pm is the first Monday of the New Millennium.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I'm Quite Sure That You Deny Gods Last Day Resurrection, Seen In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Before Your Eyes Below.
Nope. I told you up front that it's not the passages you are using that's the problem here. It's the manner in which you put them together, while ignoring the rest of the bible.


Mesmerized By John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield's Dispensationalism.
I have no idea who John N. Darby or Adulterer C. I. Scofield are.

Dispensationalism I'm acquainted with.

So, if you're going to use your ignorance of my background and people I'm unfamiliar with to build your presuppositions, it seems pretty clear that you've already lost.


I Was Deceived For 20 Years, Sitting In The Pew Shouting Amen To The False Teachings, I Didn't Have A Clue 😵

I'm sorry. I was taught from the very beginning that as a follower of Jesus it's imperative to:
2Ti 2:15 WEB Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn’t need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth.​

I was further taught to be like the Bereans, from Acts 17:11.

Act 17:11 WEB Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.​

And like Paul told the Thessalonians, in chapter 5.

1Th 5:21-22 WEB 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.​

So I genuinely am sorry for your experience. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater because you had poor study habits is not valid justification for your beliefs exhibited here.
I didn't start following Jesus until I was 17. I'm 60 now. I've been reading the bible for a very long time.

You know. I just remembered.... there was a guy named scofield who published a bible in the 19th century. Oops. Excuse me, in the early 20th century.


I've never had a scofield bible. I've never studied the writings of scofield.

So, you're not helping yourself or me by repeating yourself over and over again.

My pastor has long referred to me as the guy who constantly checks his sources, so if you actually want to be taken seriously here, you're going to have to provide me with supporting materials that I can corroborate.




Scripture "Clearly Teaches" That Your Claim Of A (Pre-Trib Rapture) Of The Church To Heaven Is Seen In 1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Is False.
Jumping on a merry-go-round isn't helping you here.

In your post above, I believe it was 54, you plainly stated that God would keep his sealed saints safe.

Considering that the entire planet is going to be impacted by the great tribulation, just where is God going to keep hundreds of millions, perhaps even a billion plus people safe from his judgment on sin?

The very concept that you presented in that specific paragraph was the very definition of the rapture.

The Greek word used in the Thessalonian 4 passage is harpadzo.

ἁρπάζω [in LXX chiefly for גָּזַל, טָרַף ;] to seize, catch up, snatch away, carry off by force: with accusative of thing(s), Refs [Mat 12:29 13:19, Jhn 10:12, 28-29 4]; τ. βασιλείαν τ. θεοῦ, Mat 11:12; with accusative of person(s), Refs [Jhn 6:15, Act 8:39 23:10, Ju 23 4]; pass., before ἕως, 2Co 12:2; εἰς, Refs [2Co 12:4, 1Th 4:17 2]; πρός, Rev 12:5 (cf. δι-, συν-αρπάζω, and see MM, see word).†

G726 Original: ἁρπάζω Transliteration: harpazō Phonetic: har-pad'-zo Thayer Definition: to seize, carry off by force to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly to snatch out or away Origin: from a derivative of G138 TDNT entry: 08:52,8 Part(s) of speech: Verb Strong's Definition: From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). Total KJV Occurrences: 17 take (2) Mat 11:12; Joh 6:15 2 by force (3) Mat 11:12; Joh 6:15; Act 23:10 3 catcheth away (1) Mat 13:19 catcheth (1) Joh 10:12 shall (1) Joh 10:28 man pluck (1) Joh 10:28 to pluck (1) Joh 10:29 caught away (1) Act 8:39 and to take (1) Act 23:10 caught up (1) 2Co 12:2 he was caught up (1) 2Co 12:4 shall be caught up (1) 1Th 4:17 pulling (1) Jud 1:23 was caught up (1) Rev 12:5


So, based on Strong's concordance, and Thayer's, this word, Harpadzo, is the point-- to be taken out by force. The word, rapture, comes from the Latin word, rapiemur.
This is the word from which we get, rapture.

"rapiemur‎ (Latin): meaning, origin, definition - WordSense Dictionary" https://www.wordsense.eu/rapiemur/

For the people who are bothered with the word, rapture, a better way to say it would be
The great snatching away.



1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Represents The Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection, Final Judgement, There Is No (Pre-Tribulation Rapture) seen as you claim.
In verse 17, the key word is harpadzo. In latin it's rapiemur‎.



1.) Is The (Second Coming) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below 100% Yes!
Except that in Zechariah, it states when Messiah comes, he'll put his foot on the Mt. of Olives, and it'll split half to the north and half to the south.
Zechariah 14:4.
Furthermore, according to Joel 3, there are 2 references to the day of judgment of the nations.

Joel 3:2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment on them there for my people, and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations. They have divided my land,

Joel 3:12 “Let the nations arouse themselves, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.

This ties in with the Matthew 25 judgment of the nations narrative.

Moreover, Daniel talked about a length of time between the abomination that makes desolate and end of the tribulation period, and the end of the judgment.

Dan 12:11-12 WEB 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.


Jesus himself told us to pay attention to the abomination that Daniel spoke of.


2. Is a (Resurrection Of The Believer) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!


3. Does this (Resurrection) take place on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24, John 5:28-29 100% Yes!

4. Is (The Last Day) the time of (Final Judgement) as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)
There's a final resurrection of the ungodly, in Revelation 20.

The godly are resurrected by Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. They're snatched away by Jesus and they remain with Jesus.
These are distinct events.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Again, your passages are not the problem here.
It's your arrangement of them. You're missing several dozen passages from the old testament that make this a coherent idea.
 

Timtofly

Member
I'm Quite Sure That You Deny Gods Last Day Resurrection, Seen In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Before Your Eyes Below.

Mesmerized By John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield's Dispensationalism.

I Was Deceived For 20 Years, Sitting In The Pew Shouting Amen To The False Teachings, I Didn't Have A Clue 😵

Scripture "Clearly Teaches" That Your Claim Of A (Pre-Trib Rapture) Of The Church To Heaven Is Seen In 1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Is False.

1 Thess 4:15-17 Below Represents The Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection, Final Judgement, There Is No (Pre-Tribulation Rapture) seen as you claim.

1.) Is The (Second Coming) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below 100% Yes!

2. Is a (Resurrection Of The Believer) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

3. Does this (Resurrection) take place on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24, John 5:28-29 100% Yes!

4. Is (The Last Day) the time of (Final Judgement) as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
The last day judgment is the GWT. The last day resurrection was at the Cross.

You have 3000 years between the two events. Yes the day is coming, but different days. Same verses but totally different data points. The key is when were the words heard that came out of the mouth of Jesus and the mouth of Paul.

Lazarus was the first human to come forth at the words of Jesus. Jesus speaks those words every day to those who leave earth and recieve their permanent incorruptible bodies. Do you place the physical resurrected body of Jesus Christ at the Cross or the GWT? Perhaps you should apply Christ to those in Christ? Those in Christ are the first fruits. Lazarus was a fellow believer in Christ. He was in Abraham's bosom and left after 4 days. Do you think he liked the Roman occupation or talking with Abraham and King David more?
 

Truth7t7

Active member
As I stated Steve, you (Deny) the believers (Last Day Resurrection) as taught by Jesus Christ, (Fact)

Nobody asked about the ungodly resurrection in Rev 20, or (How) the believers are snatched away

You use (Distraction) from giving a direct answer regarding the believers (Last Day Resurrection)

You choose Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, and their (Pre-Trib Rapture) over Gods truth regarding the (Last Day Resurrection)

The (Last Day Resurrection) Seen In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (Destroy's) The False Teaching Of A Pre-Trib Rapture, This Is Why You Have Avoided A Direct Response

Truth7t7 Presented Questions, 2,3,4 below

2. Is a (Resurrection Of The Believer) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!
3. Does this (Resurrection) take place on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24, John 5:28-29 100% Yes!

4. Is (The Last Day) the time of (Final Judgement) as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

SteveB response below, to questions 2,3,4 above
SteveB: There's a final resurrection of the ungodly, in Revelation 20.

The godly are resurrected by Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. They're snatched away by Jesus and they remain with Jesus.
These are distinct events.

2. Is a (Resurrection Of The Believer) seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

3. Does this (Resurrection) take place on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24, John 5:28-29 100% Yes!

4. Is (The Last Day) the time of (Final Judgement) as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
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Truth7t7

Active member
Nope. I told you up front that it's not the passages you are using that's the problem here. It's the manner in which you put them together, while ignoring the rest of the bible.



I have no idea who John N. Darby or Adulterer C. I. Scofield are.

Dispensationalism I'm acquainted with.

So, if you're going to use your ignorance of my background and people I'm unfamiliar with to build your presuppositions, it seems pretty clear that you've already lost.




I'm sorry. I was taught from the very beginning that as a follower of Jesus it's imperative to:
2Ti 2:15 WEB Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn’t need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth.​

I was further taught to be like the Bereans, from Acts 17:11.

Act 17:11 WEB Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.​

And like Paul told the Thessalonians, in chapter 5.

1Th 5:21-22 WEB 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.​

So I genuinely am sorry for your experience. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater because you had poor study habits is not valid justification for your beliefs exhibited here.
I didn't start following Jesus until I was 17. I'm 60 now. I've been reading the bible for a very long time.

You know. I just remembered.... there was a guy named scofield who published a bible in the 19th century. Oops. Excuse me, in the early 20th century.


I've never had a scofield bible. I've never studied the writings of scofield.

So, you're not helping yourself or me by repeating yourself over and over again.

My pastor has long referred to me as the guy who constantly checks his sources, so if you actually want to be taken seriously here, you're going to have to provide me with supporting materials that I can corroborate.





Jumping on a merry-go-round isn't helping you here.

In your post above, I believe it was 54, you plainly stated that God would keep his sealed saints safe.

Considering that the entire planet is going to be impacted by the great tribulation, just where is God going to keep hundreds of millions, perhaps even a billion plus people safe from his judgment on sin?

The very concept that you presented in that specific paragraph was the very definition of the rapture.

The Greek word used in the Thessalonian 4 passage is harpadzo.

ἁρπάζω [in LXX chiefly for גָּזַל, טָרַף ;] to seize, catch up, snatch away, carry off by force: with accusative of thing(s), Refs [Mat 12:29 13:19, Jhn 10:12, 28-29 4]; τ. βασιλείαν τ. θεοῦ, Mat 11:12; with accusative of person(s), Refs [Jhn 6:15, Act 8:39 23:10, Ju 23 4]; pass., before ἕως, 2Co 12:2; εἰς, Refs [2Co 12:4, 1Th 4:17 2]; πρός, Rev 12:5 (cf. δι-, συν-αρπάζω, and see MM, see word).†

G726 Original: ἁρπάζω Transliteration: harpazō Phonetic: har-pad'-zo Thayer Definition: to seize, carry off by force to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly to snatch out or away Origin: from a derivative of G138 TDNT entry: 08:52,8 Part(s) of speech: Verb Strong's Definition: From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). Total KJV Occurrences: 17 take (2) Mat 11:12; Joh 6:15 2 by force (3) Mat 11:12; Joh 6:15; Act 23:10 3 catcheth away (1) Mat 13:19 catcheth (1) Joh 10:12 shall (1) Joh 10:28 man pluck (1) Joh 10:28 to pluck (1) Joh 10:29 caught away (1) Act 8:39 and to take (1) Act 23:10 caught up (1) 2Co 12:2 he was caught up (1) 2Co 12:4 shall be caught up (1) 1Th 4:17 pulling (1) Jud 1:23 was caught up (1) Rev 12:5


So, based on Strong's concordance, and Thayer's, this word, Harpadzo, is the point-- to be taken out by force. The word, rapture, comes from the Latin word, rapiemur.
This is the word from which we get, rapture.

"rapiemur‎ (Latin): meaning, origin, definition - WordSense Dictionary" https://www.wordsense.eu/rapiemur/

For the people who are bothered with the word, rapture, a better way to say it would be
The great snatching away.




In verse 17, the key word is harpadzo. In latin it's rapiemur‎.




Except that in Zechariah, it states when Messiah comes, he'll put his foot on the Mt. of Olives, and it'll split half to the north and half to the south.
Zechariah 14:4.
Furthermore, according to Joel 3, there are 2 references to the day of judgment of the nations.

Joel 3:2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment on them there for my people, and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations. They have divided my land,

Joel 3:12 “Let the nations arouse themselves, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.

This ties in with the Matthew 25 judgment of the nations narrative.

Moreover, Daniel talked about a length of time between the abomination that makes desolate and end of the tribulation period, and the end of the judgment.

Dan 12:11-12 WEB 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.


Jesus himself told us to pay attention to the abomination that Daniel spoke of.






There's a final resurrection of the ungodly, in Revelation 20.

The godly are resurrected by Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. They're snatched away by Jesus and they remain with Jesus.
These are distinct events.




Again, your passages are not the problem here.
It's your arrangement of them. You're missing several dozen passages from the old testament that make this a coherent idea.
C.I. Scofield is the modern father of Dispensationalsim, he was instrumental in the founding of (Dallas Theological Seminary) as Lewis S. Chafer was his student and disciple.

Dallas Theological Alumni:
Hal Lindsey, David Jeremiah, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Swindoll, Tim La Haye, Thomas Ice, Charles Ryrie

The Scofield Reference Bible 1909, maintained (Dispensationalism's) teachings in the margins

The 1909 reference bible was the single greatest source and influence in spreading (Dispensationalism) throughout the world, with millions of copies sold, and on pulpits and under arms from 1909-1970 in the majority

C.I. Scofield was married to Leotine, and had two daughters, he abandoned them in Kansas without support and ended up pastoring a Church in Dallas Texas at 41 years old, there he met the Sunday School college girl (Hettie Van Wart) 24 years old, Scofield divorced his wife Leotine and married Hettie in 1884 (Adultery)

(Adultery) Scofield remained married to Hettie until his death in 1921,while his lawful wife Leotine lived, dying in 1936

C.I. Scofield produced the greatest influence in the world relating to (Dispensationalism) in his 1909 reference bible, while Hettie was the secretary and assistant on this work, that was produced by (Adulterers) C.I. Scofield & Hettie Van Wart (Corrupt Fruit)

Matthew 7:17-18KJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
C.I. Scofield is the modern father of Dispensationalsim, he was instrumental in the founding of (Dallas Theological Seminary) as Lewis S. Chafer was his student and disciple.

Dallas Theological Alumni:
Hal Lindsey, David Jeremiah, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Swindoll, Tim La Haye, Thomas Ice, Charles Ryrie

The Scofield Reference Bible 1909, maintained (Dispensationalism's) teachings in the margins

The 1909 reference bible was the single greatest source and influence in spreading (Dispensationalism) throughout the world, with millions of copies sold, and on pulpits and under arms from 1909-1970 in the majority

C.I. Scofield was married to Leotine, and had two daughters, he abandoned them in Kansas without support and ended up pastoring a Church in Dallas Texas at 41 years old, there he met the Sunday School college girl (Hettie Van Wart) 24 years old, Scofield divorced his wife Leotine and married Hettie in 1884 (Adultery)

(Adultery) Scofield remained married to Hettie until his death in 1921,while his lawful wife Leotine lived, dying in 1936

C.I. Scofield produced the greatest influence in the world relating to (Dispensationalism) in his 1909 reference bible, while Hettie was the secretary and assistant on this work, that was produced by (Adulterers) C.I. Scofield & Hettie Van Wart (Corrupt Fruit)

Matthew 7:17-18KJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Indeed interesting.

I'm curious about the historical tree of the people who are teaching you then.

I wouldn't normally care, but since you've done such an impressive job of putting together so illustrious a collection, it seems only fitting to ask you if you've done something like this for the past 110 years of your teaching's origins.

Seems reasonable to do do.

So, let's do it this way.

You're calling this idea that I'm using, Dispensationalism.

What is your collection of ideas known as?
Post millennialism, Amillennialism?

Or something else?
 

e v e

Super Member
There's lots of evidence that this army is an army of ANGELS and NOT people or 'resurrected saints'. Matthew 25:31 tells us that Christ will return with angels and SAINTS are NOT mentioned.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mathew 16:27 Jesus says, For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

In Mathew 24:31 Jesus says, And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Mathew 13:49 Jesus says, So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just. (This is the judgment that determines WHO enters the 1,000 years)

In Mathew 25:31 Jesus says, When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

In Mark 8:38 Jesus said, For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

In Luke 9:26 Jesus said, For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7 Paul says, And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.

1 Thes. 4:16 Paul says, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel...

1 Thes. 3:13...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

SAINTS


The KJV uses the word saints. Several other translations as well as the interlinear uses the words "HOLY ONES" NOT saints. Strong's uses the word hagios but if you look at the Textus Receptus it uses the word 'hagion' or 'Holy ones'.

Strong's differentiates between the two but for some reason always uses the word 'hagios.

39. hagion hag'-ee-on neuter of 40; a sacred thing (i.e. spot):--holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.

40. hagios hag'-ee-os from hagos (an awful thing) (compare 53, 2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

In JUDE 14 - "...the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints", the KJV uses the word saints, the interlinear uses the words, "holy ones" NOT saints. The NIV, NLT, CSB, ESV, NASB, NET, RSV, and several others all use 'HOLY ONES'.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. (holy ones)

According Vines Expository Definition of New Testament words - (bold is mine)

SAINTS is an adjective - used without a noun it is translated "saints" referring to people in Matthew 27:52; Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; 15:25-26; Ephesians 3:8; 4:12; Philippians 1:1; 4:21). "Saints" refers to angels in 1 Thessalonians 3:13; and Jude 1:14. "The holy one" refers to Jesus in Mark 1:24 and Acts 3:14. When used as an adjective with a noun it is always translated "holy". It used of men in Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; and 2 Peter 3:2. It is used of angels at Jesus' second coming in Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38; and Luke 9:26. It is used of Jesus in Acts 4:27; and 4:30. It is used of the Holy Spirit in Mark 1:8; 13:11; Luke 4:1; and Acts 2:4.

That may help us determine if the army in Rev. 19:20 includes resurrected saints! We know that angels are mentioned several places as returning with Christ so in Revelation 19:20 they ARE, I believe, God's returning army of ANGELS! Regardless of the rapture position one holds, the battle is AFTER the resurrection, that in no way means the resurrected saints RETURN with Christ and his angels because SAINTS are angels - NOT people - and people are NOT part of God's army.

I conclude that in the verses Christ' return is mentioned, 'hagion' is correct and literally means "the holy (...)" AND always refers to "the holy angels."
the saints are souls of eden reuinited to their birthright at the Change. the 144k.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Indeed interesting.

I'm curious about the historical tree of the people who are teaching you then.

I wouldn't normally care, but since you've done such an impressive job of putting together so illustrious a collection, it seems only fitting to ask you if you've done something like this for the past 110 years of your teaching's origins.

Seems reasonable to do do.

So, let's do it this way.

You're calling this idea that I'm using, Dispensationalism.

What is your collection of ideas known as?
Post millennialism, Amillennialism?

Or something else?
C.I Scofield & Adultery, A Subject Kept Quiet?

Steve I have been married to the same woman my entire life who is also a Christian, my only marriage.

I have been saved for 40+ years, I have attended Baptist, Calvary Chapels, Assembly Of God, Four Square, Non-Denominational during this time.

I read and use the King James Bible, I followed the teachings of John N. Darby & C.I Scofield's (Dispensationalism) for 20+ Years

Pre-Trib Rapture, Dual Covenant Theology, Millennialism, being taught this "Primarily" Through the Baptist And Calvary Chapel Churches.

I find it hard to believe, you claim to be a student of the bible for 43 years, and are unaware of (Dispensationalism) and its teachings?

Yes its true, C.I. Scofield was the greatest world influence, in his 1909 reference bible, planting (Dispensationalism) in the minds and hearts of men and women around the world

Yes it's TRUE C.I. Scofield was an adulterer, and his 1909 reference notes were produced under this adulterous sin.

C.I. Scofield & Hettie Van Wart were (Corrupt Trees - Adulterers) and the 1909 reference notes (Corrupt Fruit), deceiving untold millions around the world, and it continues to this present day

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
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Truth7t7

Active member
Indeed interesting.

I'm curious about the historical tree of the people who are teaching you then.
Steve the subject of C.I Scofields life is found in multiple records, biography's, news articles etc, the internet search is an amazing tool, perhaps you can acquaint yourself? (y)

Find A Grave, C.I. Scofield

(Fact) Scofield was married to and Divorced From Leotine Scofield

(Fact) Scofield Had Two Daughters, And A Son That Died In Infancy with Leotine

(Fact) Scofield At 41 Married A Woman Being 17 Years Her Senior (Hettie Van Wart) In 1884

Spelling of maiden name in various sources is given as Van Wart, Van Wark, and Van Wartz; 2nd wife of Cyrus Ingerson Scofield; they had one child, Noel Paul Scofield (1888-1962)

(Fact) Scofield Produced The 1909 Reference Notes, While In The Active Sin Of Adultery.

(Fact) These 1909 Reference Notes Were The Greatest World Influence, In Spreading (Dispensationalism) And The Pre-Trib Rapture To The World.

(Fact) Scofield Died In 1921, While Remaining Married To Hettie Van Wart, While His Lawful Wife Leotine Lived (Adultery)

(Fact) C.I. Scofield Is A Corrupt Tree, And His 1909 Reference Notes Are Corrupt Fruit.

Matthew 7:17-18KJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
C.I Scofield & Adultery, A Subject Kept Quiet?

Steve I have been married to the same woman my entire life who is also a Christian, my only marriage.

I have been saved for 40+ years, I have attended Baptist, Calvary Chapels, Assembly Of God, Four Square, Non-Denominational during this time.

I read and use the King James Bible, I followed the teachings of John N. Darby & C.I Scofield's (Dispensationalism) for 20+ Years

Pre-Trib Rapture, Dual Covenant Theology, Millennialism, being taught this "Primarily" Through the Baptist And Calvary Chapel Churches.

I find it hard to believe, you claim to be a student of the bible for 43 years, and are unaware of (Dispensationalism) and its teachings?

Yes its true, C.I. Scofield was the greatest world influence, in his 1909 reference bible, planting (Dispensationalism) in the minds and hearts of men and women around the world

Yes it's TRUE C.I. Scofield was an adulterer, and his 1909 reference notes were produced under this adulterous sin.

C.I. Scofield & Hettie Van Wart were (Corrupt Trees - Adulterers) and the 1909 reference notes (Corrupt Fruit), deceiving untold millions around the world, and it continues to this present day

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
In other words, you've got nothing but your own opinions.

This is not about you committing adultery. This is about your belief that Scofield's adultery causes everything that he did to be fraudulent and everyone who comes after him to also be wrong.

Ok.

I have a question for you.

Are you basing your belief about the deception of Scofield, on this one passage?

What happens when you realize that Jesus also said,

Mat 7:1-5 WEB 1 “Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. 2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye? 4 Or how will you tell your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ and behold, the beam is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.

As well as


Joh 7:24 WEB Don’t judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

At what point do you think that your opinion about this issue is skewed, by your own self-righteous judgment?

I say this explicitly because you cannot provide me with anything other than this as the basis for your belief.

And then you justify yourself by saying you've never committed adultery.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
In other words, you've got nothing but your own opinions.

This is not about you committing adultery. This is about your belief that Scofield's adultery causes everything that he did to be fraudulent and everyone who comes after him to also be wrong.

Ok.

I have a question for you.

Are you basing your belief about the deception of Scofield, on this one passage?

What happens when you realize that Jesus also said,

Mat 7:1-5 WEB 1 “Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. 2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye? 4 Or how will you tell your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ and behold, the beam is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.

As well as


Joh 7:24 WEB Don’t judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

At what point do you think that your opinion about this issue is skewed, by your own self-righteous judgment?

I say this explicitly because you cannot provide me with anything other than this as the basis for your belief.

And then you justify yourself by saying you've never committed adultery.
Thanks For The Response Steve, No Axe To Grind Here, Just Truth That Is Kept Quiet In (Dispensationalism's) Circles,

(Hal Lindsey) Is On His 4th Marriage, While His Lawful Wife Lives (Adultery)

(John Hagee) In Texas Ran Off With The young College Girl Also (Diana Castro), Divorced His Lawful Wife That Still Lives (Adultery)

Gods Words Are True Below,You Won't Change This Fact.

Its "Impossible" For An Adulterer C.I. Scofield (Corrupt Tree) To Bring Forth (Good Fruit) In His 1909 Reference Notes (Dispensationalism)

(Fact) Scofield Died In 1921, While Remaining Married To Hettie Van Wart, While His Lawful Wife Leotine Lived (Adultery)

(Fact) C.I. Scofield Is A Corrupt Tree, And His 1909 Reference Notes Are Corrupt Fruit.

Matthew 7:17-18KJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Thanks For The Response Steve, No Axe To Grind Here, Just Truth That Is Kept Quiet In (Dispensationalism's) Circles,

Hal Lindsey Is On His 4th Marriage, While His Lawful Wife Lives (Adultery)

John Hagee In Texas Ran Off With The young College Girl Also (Diana Castro), Divorced His Wife That Still Lives (Adultery)

Gods Words Are True Below,You Won't Change This Fact.

Its "Impossible" For An Adulterer C.I. Scofield (Corrupt Tree) To Bring Forth (Good Fruit) In His 1909 Reference Notes (Dispensationalism)

(Fact) Scofield Died In 1921, While Remaining Married To Hettie Van Wart, While His Lawful Wife Leotine Lived (Adultery)

(Fact) C.I. Scofield Is A Corrupt Tree, And His 1909 Reference Notes Are Corrupt Fruit.

Matthew 7:17-18KJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Obviously you do have an axe to grind.

This is the second post you've refused to respond to.

You're not helping your cause here T.

I'm trying to give you the opportunity to demonstrate that your point carries validity.

Tit 3:8-11 WEB 8 This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you insist confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; 9 but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a one is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Obviously you do have an axe to grind.

This is the second post you've refused to respond to.

You're not helping your cause here T.

I'm trying to give you the opportunity to demonstrate that your point carries validity.

Tit 3:8-11 WEB 8 This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you insist confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; 9 but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a one is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
We Will Disagree, Gods Words Stand True

The Husband Can't Divorce His Wife, And Be Married To Another While She Lives, Same Applies To Wife (Adultery)

Mark 10:11-12KJV

11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Just Truth That Is Kept Quiet In (Dispensationalism's) Circles,

(Hal Lindsey) Is On His 4th Marriage, While His Lawful Wife Lives (Adultery)

(John Hagee) In Texas Ran Off With The young College Girl Also (Diana Castro), Divorced His Lawful Wife That Still Lives (Adultery)

Gods Words Are True Below,You Won't Change This Fact.

Its "Impossible" For An Adulterer C.I. Scofield (Corrupt Tree) To Bring Forth (Good Fruit) In His 1909 Reference Notes (Dispensationalism)

(Fact) Scofield Died In 1921, While Remaining Married To Hettie Van Wart, While His Lawful Wife Leotine Lived (Adultery)

(Fact) C.I. Scofield Is A Corrupt Tree, And His 1909 Reference Notes Are Corrupt Fruit.

Matthew 7:17-18KJV

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Obviously you do have an axe to grind.

This is the second post you've refused to respond to.

You're not helping your cause here T.

I'm trying to give you the opportunity to demonstrate that your point carries validity.

Tit 3:8-11 WEB 8 This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you insist confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; 9 but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a one is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
(WEB) Translation, Mike & Lori Johnson

I noticed your quotation of a translation I have never seen before (WEB)?

Did a little research out of curiosity, and found it was created by the work of Mike Johnson (Electrical Engineer) and his wife Lori, that has a BA in Kinesiology and is a certified teacher.

Wikipedia: Kinesiology is the scientific study of human or non-human body movement. Kinesiology addresses physiological, biomechanical, and psychological dynamic principles and mechanisms of movement.

King James Bible Translators

INTRODUCTION​

At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.
All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.
One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.
Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.
They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:
The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)
For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.
Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.
 
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