ReverendRV
Well-known member
Amen; God made the Thief a Disciple without Baptizing him; AND without Teaching him...
Do the "elect", "chosen” or “choice” ones of God know who they are?
- Thread starter TheTruth
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
This is the way I debate. I try to never say anything that an Evangelical will disagree with...Yes I agree
How does this negate that they both died on a cross and their spirits went to hell? They went to a place where the OT saints were waiting for Jesus to free them. Your claim is that Jesus is applying the same rules for the dead and for those who are alive. Your first mistake was to claim that the "living thief" went with Jesus to paradise when in fact the thief died on the cross...
Theo1689
Well-known member
Scripture never teaches that "their spirits went to hell".
Scripture teaches that thief went to Paradise (ie. heaven) that very day.
Where does the scripture say that God made the thief a disciple? You keep making false claims without scripture support.
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
and just in case you don't know what a soul is...
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Paradise is not Heaven... Jesus did not go to heaven that very day...
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
When you make those statements and claim scripture teaches, you should quote where the scripture teaches it.
since you agree can you show where the scripture teaches that?Yes I agree
Jesus did no such thing so how is it a good method if one is a follower of Jesus?A good method
Jesus did not do that did he?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Well, we could discuss that passage if you wish, and see whether you're interpreting it correctly. Obviously, I don't think that you are.
Actually, Paradise IS heaven:
2 Cor. 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
And yes, Jesus DID go to heaven that day.
That doesn't say that Jesus didn't go to heaven the day He was crucified.
This is specifically referring to a specific ASCENSION event that had not yet happened.
Maybe you should lose the attitude and instead follow your own advice.
You STILL haven't provided any Scripture which teaches, "Jesus didn't go to heaven that day".
Ok...
The scripture is not of private interpretation...
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Nothing here says Paradise is heaven...Paul does not know if he went to heaven... He knows he went to paradise an enclosed garden...
Where is the passage that says so?
This says he did not...
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
So how many times did Jesus ascend and where is ir written in the scripture?
My attitude is just fine, and I follow my advice.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Please show your scripture that says Jesus did go to heaven that day.
Yep, he sure did...That is why they could not answer his questions... and he always said things that they disagreed with...
Theo1689
Well-known member
Here is proof that you don't correctly understand Scripture.
But if your false "interpretation" of this verse were true, then it would only mean that your comments here are worthless, since they are nothing but your "private interpretation".
But I guess the bottom line is that you're not interested in discussing Scripture.
Oh well....
Paul was writing in a style called Hebraic parallelism, where he is saying the same thing in different words. The style is found throughout Proverbs, for example.
2 Cor. 12:2 I know a man in Christ who ... was caught up to the third heaven
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—
Paul is equating "the third heaven" with "Paradise":
"first heaven" - the air - home of the "birds of the heavens".
"second heaven"- cosmic space - 'the stars in the heaven".
"third heaven" = Paradise/the abode of God - "our Father in heaven".
2 Cor. 12:2-4.
No, it doesn't.
This is referring to a SPECIFIC ascension, which hadn't happened yet.
Jesus didn't "ascend" to heave on the day He was crucified.
He simply went there without physically ascending.
Then why can't you provide any Scripture which says, "Jesus didn't GO to heaven when He was crucified"?
Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."
saints, holy, without blame, predestined etc
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Yes, they were waiting in Abraham's bosom, not hell.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
My comments are what the scripture says... I did not interpret anything.
This forum is about discussing scripture... You did not present any scripture that says Jesus went to heaven the day he died.
You left out the part where he said he did not know... Paul does not equate anything since he admitted to not knowing...
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Please show the scripture to support your assumptions...
So how many times did Jesus ascend? Please show the scripture to support your assumptions..
That is a joke right? You are saying, Jesus spent three days and three nights in the earth while he was in heaven?
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
I did provide scripture saying that Jesus spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth when he died...
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This is proof that paradise is not heaven.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Unless you are saying that Jesus lied about being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth...
Theo1689
Well-known member
ROTFLOL!
This gets old REALLY fast.
Just because I reject your ignorant misinterpretation, dosen't mean that I think Jesus "lied".
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you are NOT Jesus.
Get over yourself.
I've explained your error to you.
You refuse to accept correction.
I see no value in wasting any further time on you.
Read the passage slowly... The man in hell could see Abraham and Lazarus...Are you saying that Heaven and hell are next to each other?
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
This does not support your position that they were not in hell. All it suggests is that there was a safe place in hell for believers. Jesus spent three days and three nights in hell. Why would he go to hell if there were no believers there to deliver?
So did Jesus spend three days and three nights in the earth? yes or no? If he did as he said he did, why are you claiming that he immediately went to heaven when he died. You are making excuses to run away. Are we not discussing the scripture as you suggested...You are claiming to have corrected me but you have not posted any scripture to do so... Is it not the scripture we use for correction and reproof?
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You are yet to post a scripture that says Jesus went to heaven immediately...I showed you two passages one where Jesus said he had not ascended yet and another where he said he stays three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.