Do the SDAs teach that observing the Sabbath on Saturday

Bonnie

Super Member
...is necessary for salvation? I ask because I seem to remember a full-page ad taken out in the St. Louis Dispatch newspaper, around the year 2000 or so--my husband and I lived in that city for 4 years, while he went to Concordia Lutheran Seminary, to become a pastor in the LCMS church--that the SDA church took out, where it talked about observing the Sabbath on Saturday, and it condemned doing so on Sunday, hinting that one is damned if one does not observe it on Saturday. So, I ask this question on here for clarification.

But I also remember, years ago, writing to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew with a doctorate in Hebrew Studies, I think it is, asking him about this Sabbath thing. He told me that in the Law of Moses, the Sabbath was NOT a day of corporate worship, but a day of total rest, where people were to stay home in their tents/houses for the day. He wrote this back to me:

If you look up every passage on the Sabbath in the Mosaic Law, the one thing you will not find is Moses commanding the people to gather together for corporate worship on the Sabbath day. What Moses did tell people to do is to stay home and rest on the Sabbath day. In fact, it was forbidden to travel more than a Sabbath day’s journey from your home, which was roughly one kilometer (.62 miles). The only ones commanded to meet regularly for corporate worship on the Sabbath day was the priesthood, and that was for the purpose of offering special Passover blood sacrifices. However, for the rest of the Jewish people, they were simply to stay at home and rest.

Corporate worship was required only three times a year: Passover (Pesach), Feast of Weeks (Shavuot), and Tabernacles (Sukkoth). Therefore, the Sabbath was simply a day of rest and staying home. Also, there is not a command to have corporate worship on Sunday either. That was the practice of the early church as early as Acts 20:7. That is an example of what they chose to do but no biblical command was given to follow it. The fact is in the Mosaic Law the Sabbath was strictly a day of rest and to stay home, and for that reason Jewish believers had their corporate worship on Saturday night (which is already the first day of the week), in order to worship with fellow believers. Gentiles also met on the first of the week but it was Sunday morning. Neither one was commanded so they both are equal options.

What the Bible commands is that believers gather together regularly for corporate worship but the day of the week is strictly optional. My messianic congregation chooses to meet on Saturday afternoon, other groups meet on Friday night and other groups meet on Sunday and all of these are valid options. One is not more biblical than the other. That is why it is so important to “rightly divide the word of truth.” The Bible definitely provides a valid roadmap, but we have to make sure what commandments are applicable to what group of people. The Mosaic Law was given to Jewish people only, and only until Messiah died. The commandments you are obligated to obey today are the commandments of the Law of the Messiah and that is the law code you need to learn to follow and not the law code that was intended for different people for a different period of time.

You will find all the details on the issues of the Sabbath and Sunday controversy in our Messianic Bible Studies entitled “The Sabbath” (mbs-176) and “The Law of Moses and the Law of the Messiah” (mbs-006). This will help to distinguish the two different law codes.

He has a website ariel.org.

So, do the SDA believe it is a sin to worship on Sunday, not Saturday? Since in the LoM, the Sabbath was a day of rest, not a day of corporate worship. IF so, why? Is it ever a sin to gather together to worship God in Christ Jesus on any day of the week?
 
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SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I will address these questions in a ordinal manor. But further questions may need a proper understanding of the discussion before it. I will admit, some our recent discussions in this forum have helped me shape a better response. I tried to keep this brief, but I realize some will not have enough knowledge for this discussion in scripture allusions. Meaning more discussions.
...is necessary for salvation? I ask because I seem to remember a full-page ad taken out in the St. Louis Dispatch newspaper, around the year 2000 or so--my husband and I lived in that city for 4 years, while he went to Concordia Lutheran Seminary, to become a pastor in the LCMS church--that the SDA church took out, where it talked about observing the Sabbath on Saturday, and it condemned doing so on Sunday, hinting that one is damned if one does not observe it on Saturday. So, I ask this question on here for clarification.
AV Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Part of our discussion will be what the Holy Spirit did say through others. And whether we choose to believe it or not, to reflect it in our own believes.

AV Lk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

First Question: "...is necessary for salvation?", I find many lose focus on what Salvation really is, in relationship to Our Creator GODhead's 'the everlasting gospel's as part of "his judgment".

AV Hb 10:26-28 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

"the Holy Ghost" gave this definition of Salvation by relating it to, "by the remission of their sins". "the knowledge of the truth" about the knowledge of sins(part of the Holy Spirit's ministry), is part of Salvation, Agree with "the Holy Ghost", or not ??? Does the Decalogue(Authored by GOD's Own Finger, Moses was just a scribe for GOD.) define sin from the GODhead's point of view ??? (This will be expanded later in discussion.)

AV Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is where it gets hard("... but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."), How do we know who has "the Comforter" or not, for this discussion ???

Our first of many discussions will be who gets to define sin ??? And by what authority ???

AV Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Who gets eternal life without confessing sins to Jesus ???

AV 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Because do we all know, what happens to all sins, Right ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Wrenage

Member
...is necessary for salvation? I ask because I seem to remember a full-page ad taken out in the St. Louis Dispatch newspaper, around the year 2000 or so--my husband and I lived in that city for 4 years, while he went to Concordia Lutheran Seminary, to become a pastor in the LCMS church--that the SDA church took out, where it talked about observing the Sabbath on Saturday, and it condemned doing so on Sunday, hinting that one is damned if one does not observe it on Saturday. So, I ask this question on here for clarification.

But I also remember, years ago, writing to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew with a doctorate in Hebrew Studies, I think it is, asking him about this Sabbath thing. He told me that in the Law of Moses, the Sabbath was NOT a day of corporate worship, but a day of total rest, where people were to stay home in their tents/houses for the day. He wrote this back to me:



He has a website ariel.org.

So, do the SDA believe it is a sin to worship on Sunday, not Saturday? Since in the LoM, the Sabbath was a day of rest, not a day of corporate worship. IF so, why? Is it ever a sin to gather together to worship God in Christ Jesus on any day of the week?
An SDA can answer this question better, but I'm bored right now so I will chime in and be open to fact checking later on. I am also a Lutheran.

Generally, the way I understand the SDA position, is that keeping the sabbath will not become a salvation issue until the National Sunday Laws are passed, which is in the SDA endtimes scenario. Then Sunday worship officially becomes the mark of the beast, and Sunday keepers will hunt down and kill sabbath keepers. So if you aren't keeping the sabbath at that point, you are lost. Hardcore SDAs are pretty into that stuff. I've even seen an article where SDA camps for kids simulate being hunted by Sunday worshippers so they can train them not to deny the sabbath.

Meanwhile, I come across different takes on the specifics in SDA stuff. I have heard them say God overlooks the ignorance of people who don't know better by not keeping the sabbath for now.

However, that doesn't jibe with other stuff Ellen White wrote, which actually came up in another thread recently. Ellen White claimed that if you are shown the sabbath truth and reject it, you are lost. She said...

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

I'm pretty sure Martin Luther was in debates on sabbath keeping and rejected arguments for it, saying New Testament Christians are not bound by the seventh-day sabbath. Play that thread out and, according to Ellen White, Luther is burning in hell right now...or will burn in hell eventually, since Ellen White was a proponent of soul sleep.

Actually, according to Ellen White, you are probably putting your soul in danger by asking this question! You've been shown the light now, so you've put yourself in Ellen White's crosshairs!
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
...is necessary for salvation? I ask because I seem to remember a full-page ad taken out in the St. Louis Dispatch newspaper, around the year 2000 or so--my husband and I lived in that city for 4 years, while he went to Concordia Lutheran Seminary, to become a pastor in the LCMS church--that the SDA church took out, where it talked about observing the Sabbath on Saturday, and it condemned doing so on Sunday, hinting that one is damned if one does not observe it on Saturday. So, I ask this question on here for clarification.

But I also remember, years ago, writing to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew with a doctorate in Hebrew Studies, I think it is, asking him about this Sabbath thing. He told me that in the Law of Moses, the Sabbath was NOT a day of corporate worship, but a day of total rest, where people were to stay home in their tents/houses for the day. He wrote this back to me:



He has a website ariel.org.

So, do the SDA believe it is a sin to worship on Sunday, not Saturday? Since in the LoM, the Sabbath was a day of rest, not a day of corporate worship. IF so, why? Is it ever a sin to gather together to worship God in Christ Jesus on any day of the week?
I have heard some say yes, while some say no.

I don't think God really cares what day you worship Him. To be honest I think He wants you to worrship Him everyday.

Just like water baptism...if Saturday worship was a requirement for salvation....there would be several chapters talking about it in the bible.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
I have heard some say yes, while some say no.
It depends on the context(time being one issue) of the question is, and the understanding between the individuals in discussion.

But we should make GOD's Point Of View in Truth, a priority !!!
I don't think God really cares what day you worship Him. To be honest I think He wants you to worrship Him everyday.
AV Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

GOD's judgment is based on reading hearts. Something which man can not do.
Just like water baptism...if Saturday worship was a requirement for salvation....there would be several chapters talking about it in the bible.
This is too sad !!!

AV 1C 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Baptism(Romans 6) IS the Bible way to celebrate Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. No Sunday rituals involved. On top of that, resurrection is celebrated as a passover, once a year.

AV 1C 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

I hope the light of this verse shines brightly into everyone's soul.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
Isn't it a command for Christians, who follow the Traditions of the Apostles, to assemble "themselves" together on Sunday?

We know Christians were to assemble "themselves" together as Christians to practice Christianity - not with Jews practicing Judaism.

Hebrews 10, 25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

The day this assembly was commanded to be upon was the 1st day of the week.

1 Corinthians 16, 1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This order was already given to the Christian communities of Galatia and now it was ordered to the Corinthian Christians. SDA's take up a collection on the same day they attend Church. People who go to Church on Sunday take up a collection on the same day they go to Church.

Jews NEVER touch money on the Sabbath, they don't do it today and they didn't do it at the time of Christ. Its illogical to assert that Christians "assembled themselves with Jews" in a Synagogue on Saturday where they COULDN'T take up a collection and the day after assembled themselves together (only Christians) TO TAKE UP A COLLECTION.

There is no doubt the early Christian Jews continued to hobnob at Synagogues with their Jewish family and friends but this WASN'T to worship Christ. Christians assembled "themselves" together for worship of Christ on the same day they took up the collection. This is not a difficult concept but systems that deny the Trinity Doctrine go to great mental gymnastic lengths to try and convince others that going to Church on Sunday is resultant from "The Beast Power". It simply isn't.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Isn't it a command for Christians, who follow the Traditions of the Apostles, to assemble "themselves" together on Sunday?
We know Christians were to assemble "themselves" together as Christians to practice Christianity - not with Jews practicing Judaism.
Hebrews 10, 25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
The day this assembly was commanded to be upon was the 1st day of the week.
1 Corinthians 16, 1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
This order was already given to the Christian communities of Galatia and now it was ordered to the Corinthian Christians. SDA's take up a collection on the same day they attend Church. People who go to Church on Sunday take up a collection on the same day they go to Church.
Jews NEVER touch money on the Sabbath, they don't do it today and they didn't do it at the time of Christ. Its illogical to assert that Christians "assembled themselves with Jews" in a Synagogue on Saturday where they COULDN'T take up a collection and the day after assembled themselves together (only Christians) TO TAKE UP A COLLECTION.
There is no doubt the early Christian Jews continued to hobnob at Synagogues with their Jewish family and friends but this WASN'T to worship Christ. Christians assembled "themselves" together for worship of Christ on the same day they took up the collection. This is not a difficult concept but systems that deny the Trinity Doctrine go to great mental gymnastic lengths to try and convince others that going to Church on Sunday is resultant from "The Beast Power". It simply isn't.
AV Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Who is an higher authority in precedence to GOD's Omniscience, Jesus or "teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men" ???

Many times, you post evidence too far down the "authority in precedence", and at times passing up GOD's own words.

AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Which side of this war, are you on then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
AV Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Who is an higher authority in precedence to GOD's Omniscience, Jesus or "teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men" ???

Many times, you post evidence too far down the "authority in precedence", and at times passing up GOD's own words.

AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Which side of this war, are you on then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

Observing Sabbath on the evening of the 6th day IS observing a tradition of man....
...Scripture says that we should obey our Christian leaders.
...The Churches of Galatia and Corinth did - excepting those who didn't.

The "order" was for them to gather themselves as a Christian Community on the 1st day of the week....
...What would SDA teaching condemn about Christians in Galatia and Corinth today doing that?
...I'd like your answer to this and then we can take the next logical step.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Prologue:
AV Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I will address these questions in a ordinal manor. But further questions may need a proper understanding of the discussion before it. I will admit, some our recent discussions in this forum have helped me shape a better response. I tried to keep this brief, but I realize some will not have enough knowledge for this discussion in scripture allusions. Meaning more discussions.

AV Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Part of our discussion will be what the Holy Spirit did say through others. And whether we choose to believe it or not, to reflect it in our own believes.

AV Lk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

First Question: "...is necessary for salvation?", I find many lose focus on what Salvation really is, in relationship to Our Creator GODhead's 'the everlasting gospel's as part of "his judgment".

AV Hb 10:26-28 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

"the Holy Ghost" gave this definition of Salvation by relating it to, "by the remission of their sins". "the knowledge of the truth" about the knowledge of sins(part of the Holy Spirit's ministry), is part of Salvation, Agree with "the Holy Ghost", or not ??? Does the Decalogue(Authored by GOD's Own Finger, Moses was just a scribe for GOD.) define sin from the GODhead's point of view ??? (This will be expanded later in discussion.)

AV Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is where it gets hard("... but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."), How do we know who has "the Comforter" or not, for this discussion ???

Our first of many discussions will be who gets to define sin ??? And by what authority ???

AV Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Who gets eternal life without confessing sins to Jesus ???

AV 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Because do we all know, what happens to all sins, Right ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
This is a lot of verbiage, and no real answer to my simple question: is observing the Sabbath on Saturday necessary for salvation--yes or no? It is not an essay question.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Observing Sabbath on the evening of the 6th day IS observing a tradition of man....
...Scripture says that we should obey our Christian leaders.
...The Churches of Galatia and Corinth did - excepting those who didn't.

The "order" was for them to gather themselves as a Christian Community on the 1st day of the week....
...What would SDA teaching condemn about Christians in Galatia and Corinth today doing that?
...I'd like your answer to this and then we can take the next logical step.
And why should it be a sin to gather together for corporate worship of Jesus Christ any day of the week?
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Jn 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Christian KISS = Keep It Spiritual and Smart.

It should be clear that some neither believe GOD or Moses. This is a spiritual Catch22 for many.
This is a lot of verbiage, and no real answer to my simple question: is observing the Sabbath on Saturday necessary for salvation--yes or no? It is not an essay question.
The sin of not keeping GOD's rest, GOD's way is a sin.

AV Ex 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

How many people get to heaven without confessing all sins to Jesus ??? Or did GOD lie to Moses about "my book" ???

These are very simple questions, that betray the heart and mind of souls.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Observing Sabbath on the evening of the 6th day IS observing a tradition of man....
...Scripture says that we should obey our Christian leaders.
...The Churches of Galatia and Corinth did - excepting those who didn't.

The "order" was for them to gather themselves as a Christian Community on the 1st day of the week....
...What would SDA teaching condemn about Christians in Galatia and Corinth today doing that?
...I'd like your answer to this and then we can take the next logical step.
' The "order" ' is where in scriptures ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
' The "order" ' is where in scriptures ???

Yours in Christ, Michael

1 Corinthians 16,1: Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Scripture also classified the failure of Christians to "assemble themselves together" AS A SIN.

Hebrews 10, 24: And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Scripture is very clear as to the day Christians "assembled themselves together", in every case it was the 1st day of the week (AKA Sunday). However, as Bonnie correctly pointed out if SDA's want to assemble themselves together on Saturday that's totally fine with me - more power to ya! I've attended Mass on Saturday plenty of times and never felt odd about it.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
1 Corinthians 16,1: Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
So you want to classify "the collection for the saints" as worship to GOD ???

You have any other worship ideas for us ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Pr 6:16-19 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

AV Mt 22:37-38 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

In loving GOD, includes loving GOD's hate for sin ???
Wouldn't be a sin.
In your opinion of what sin is, Right ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
On what day is it that SDA's put money into a Collection Basket?
AV Lk 21:3-4 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: 4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

That is a per individual basis. No one compels monetary offerings on Sabbath. Many mail it to the treasurer.

So what is your point, plainly ???

Are all offerings offered by an individual on Sabbath a problem, in your point of view ???

Hey, that's a thought, have Church leaders go house to house on Sunday for collection for the Saints, Biblical Right !!!

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Active member
AV Lk 21:3-4 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: 4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

That is a per individual basis. No one compels monetary offerings on Sabbath. Many mail it to the treasurer.

So what is your point, plainly ???

Are all offerings offered by an individual on Sabbath a problem, in your point of view ???

Hey, that's a thought, have Church leaders go house to house on Sunday for collection for the Saints, Biblical Right !!!

Yours in Christ, Michael

My point plainly is that a "collection plate" is passed around on the day people gather and are in the proximity of the collection plate. Jews today or back in Jesus' day wouldn't dream of walking into a synagogue with money on the Sabbath day so that dispels the notion one might have of Christian Jews meeting on the Sabbath and putting money into a collection.

What I'm plainly saying is that SDA's operate their collection just like any other Church does, they pass a collection plate around ON THE DAY THEY HAVE CHURCH. I know this as a fact because I was invited to go to an SDA Church several years ago, went twice and both times, ON SATURDAY they passed a collection plate.

I've just presented you with a Scripture that says two separate cities were ORDERED to bring their collection with them on the day they assembled themselves together - that day was Sunday. Just deal with it.
 
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