Sketo
Well-known member
The middle voice doesn't denylibertarianism
It’s not a positive justification for it either. If the only justification you have to support your claim is Negative Theology you are found to have built your house on sand.
Where is your positive justification for your claim?
but can have an assistive agent as in mowing the lawn (the mower mows too) or sitting ourselves down. Just because a boat drifts doesn't mean we can'tlibertarianlyassist it along. Just because we move in God doesn't mean we can'tlibertarianlydirect it.
It doesn’t mean we can either. You assume but where is your positive justification for your assumption?
You are not upholding the mower’s existence moment by moment. God’s metaphysical relationship to the continued existence of all things is vastly different to your mere pushing of a mower.
Without gasoline a car doesn't run. Without God's power we don't move. It's still God's power.
WOW, you really have no clue what you are talking about. There is a massive difference between you putting gas in your car and the Transcendent God of all creation metaphysical relationship with every molecule of you, the gas, the cars continued existence into its next state of being.
If God upholds “all things” then that includes you, the gas, the car, and everything inside of it. If He upholds all things then that includes the smallest particle of your existence, spiritual or physical, and therefore He is in control of all existence at all moments.
It doesn't mean we're not libertarian.
This negative assumption does not positively justify we are either. Where is your positive justification? You have nothing!
We still move in Him (Acts 17:28) because without Him we can't.
Correct. There is no disconnect from God.
The panentheists of the day believed part of God morphedoutand gradually changeditselfto become the universe and us.
Incorrect… where is your reference?
A change indicateslibertarianism.
This is merely an assumption without justification. If it is by God’s power that “a change” in being from one moment of existence to the next, it actually indicates that your not popping out of existence must be determined by the one exerting the power. A change without justification can not prove your claim that Gods determining is not necessary. God is always in control of his own power at every moment.
I believe God created ex nihilo though but ex nihilo being already different than God can go along with libertarianism.
Just because the Eternal Transcendent God can create “ex nihilo” does not justify your assumption that a creature, wholly dependent on its creator for its very movement, can have the same attributes.
Where is your positive justification for this claim?
Panentheism islibertarian.
I’m beginning to think you don’t have a clue what “libertarian” even means at this point…
You add “libertarian” to everything.
Example:
The rock libertarianly fell to the ground
The sky is libertarianly blue
The man libertarianly tripped over the rock
You have no reference point for your addition of the word “libertarian” therefore your addition of it meaning.
It's pantheism that is predeterministic, which is associated with Calvin ( https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesus...ism-and-pantheism-and-the-good-wesley-walker/ )
You show your ignorance of these categories with every post you make. Both Pantheism and Panentheism have all things predetermined by God’s power.
The difference lies in his distinction not his determinative power.
Palamism of the Early church and today's Eastern Orthodox church, which is a creation ex nihilo version of panentheism is libertarian. Paul's interaction with the panentheistic hearers of Acts 17:27-28 then must have been libertarianism.
You have no clue! We are discussing your continued existence after creation not merely your creation.
By what power do you continue to exist into the very next state of your next millisecond of thought?
God is not predetermined, otherwise we have God with no other libertarian choice than to meticulously predetermine us.
God as an eternal transcendent being contains all the self attributes that is necessary for self determination but this does not justify your assumption that he can create another God with any number of independent attributes….
Where is your positive justification for this claim?
Do you say God is predetermined?
No, for God is a Transcendent self sufficient being existing in the eternal realm Creation is not!
I would say God's reasoning includeslibertarianchoice from among a number of equal value options…
Since you do not give a reference point for your use of the word “libertarian” I can not agree with you that “God’s choice” is “libertarian” from “God’s reasoning”.
“God’s choice” is determined by “God’s reasoning”!
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)
and He created uslibertarianlike Himself.
Where is your positive justification for this claim? Zero foundational evidence
How do you say God reasons?
By his own Power.
He is God… you are not God!
Libertarianism is not random since God is not random,
“Libertarian” has no reason for choices therefor it can not be differentiated from randomness. You start from the choice but have no explanation for how it came to be. “It just happened” is your answer so how can you differentiate it from randomness?
God’s purpose is the Ultimate reason for all things therefore there is no such thing as random.
neither is He predetermined.
But this does not positively justify your claim that creation is not predetermined.
But the conclusion that reconciles this is that there is a third choice,
But your lack of positive justification disqualifies it as a valid choice.
If God was trying to convince us of predeterminism He wouldn't have used panentheism to do so, but it is pantheism which is predeterministic.
Again both require God’s power for you to continue to exist after creation… and the choice to exert that power is first determined by God… not you.
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