Do You Agree, or Disagree, With These Commentaries…

The middle voice doesn't deny libertarianism

It’s not a positive justification for it either. If the only justification you have to support your claim is Negative Theology you are found to have built your house on sand.

Where is your positive justification for your claim?

but can have an assistive agent as in mowing the lawn (the mower mows too) or sitting ourselves down. Just because a boat drifts doesn't mean we can't libertarianly assist it along. Just because we move in God doesn't mean we can't libertarianly direct it.

It doesn’t mean we can either. You assume but where is your positive justification for your assumption?

You are not upholding the mower’s existence moment by moment. God’s metaphysical relationship to the continued existence of all things is vastly different to your mere pushing of a mower.

Without gasoline a car doesn't run. Without God's power we don't move. It's still God's power.

WOW, you really have no clue what you are talking about. There is a massive difference between you putting gas in your car and the Transcendent God of all creation metaphysical relationship with every molecule of you, the gas, the cars continued existence into its next state of being.

If God upholds “all things” then that includes you, the gas, the car, and everything inside of it. If He upholds all things then that includes the smallest particle of your existence, spiritual or physical, and therefore He is in control of all existence at all moments.

It doesn't mean we're not libertarian.

This negative assumption does not positively justify we are either. Where is your positive justification? You have nothing!

We still move in Him (Acts 17:28) because without Him we can't.

Correct. There is no disconnect from God.

The panentheists of the day believed part of God morphed out and gradually changed itself to become the universe and us.

Incorrect… where is your reference?

A change indicates libertarianism.

This is merely an assumption without justification. If it is by God’s power that “a change” in being from one moment of existence to the next, it actually indicates that your not popping out of existence must be determined by the one exerting the power. A change without justification can not prove your claim that Gods determining is not necessary. God is always in control of his own power at every moment.

I believe God created ex nihilo though but ex nihilo being already different than God can go along with libertarianism.

Just because the Eternal Transcendent God can create “ex nihilo” does not justify your assumption that a creature, wholly dependent on its creator for its very movement, can have the same attributes.

Where is your positive justification for this claim?

Panentheism is libertarian.

I’m beginning to think you don’t have a clue what “libertarian” even means at this point…

You add “libertarian” to everything.

Example:
The rock libertarianly fell to the ground
The sky is libertarianly blue
The man libertarianly tripped over the rock

You have no reference point for your addition of the word “libertarian” therefore your addition of it meaning.

It's pantheism that is predeterministic, which is associated with Calvin ( https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesus...ism-and-pantheism-and-the-good-wesley-walker/ )

You show your ignorance of these categories with every post you make. Both Pantheism and Panentheism have all things predetermined by God’s power.

The difference lies in his distinction not his determinative power.

Palamism of the Early church and today's Eastern Orthodox church, which is a creation ex nihilo version of panentheism is libertarian. Paul's interaction with the panentheistic hearers of Acts 17:27-28 then must have been libertarianism.

You have no clue! We are discussing your continued existence after creation not merely your creation.

By what power do you continue to exist into the very next state of your next millisecond of thought?

God is not predetermined, otherwise we have God with no other libertarian choice than to meticulously predetermine us.

God as an eternal transcendent being contains all the self attributes that is necessary for self determination but this does not justify your assumption that he can create another God with any number of independent attributes….

Where is your positive justification for this claim?

Do you say God is predetermined?

No, for God is a Transcendent self sufficient being existing in the eternal realm Creation is not!

I would say God's reasoning includes libertarian choice from among a number of equal value options…

Since you do not give a reference point for your use of the word “libertarian” I can not agree with you that “God’s choice” is “libertarian” from “God’s reasoning”.

“God’s choice” is determined by “God’s reasoning”!

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)


and He created us libertarian like Himself.

Where is your positive justification for this claim? Zero foundational evidence

How do you say God reasons?

By his own Power.
He is God… you are not God!

Libertarianism is not random since God is not random,

“Libertarian” has no reason for choices therefor it can not be differentiated from randomness. You start from the choice but have no explanation for how it came to be. “It just happened” is your answer so how can you differentiate it from randomness?

God’s purpose is the Ultimate reason for all things therefore there is no such thing as random.

neither is He predetermined.

But this does not positively justify your claim that creation is not predetermined.

But the conclusion that reconciles this is that there is a third choice,

But your lack of positive justification disqualifies it as a valid choice.

If God was trying to convince us of predeterminism He wouldn't have used panentheism to do so, but it is pantheism which is predeterministic.

Again both require God’s power for you to continue to exist after creation… and the choice to exert that power is first determined by God… not you.

 
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“The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.”
(Pro 16:33)



Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(33) The lot is cast into the lap . . .—In other words, much that we attribute to chance is due to the providence of God. (Comp. Matthew 10:29-30.) This should be an encouragement to trust in Him.

Benson Commentary
Proverbs 16:33. The lot is cast into the lap — As the ancient practice was in dividing inheritances, and deciding in doubtful cases; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord — The event, though casual to men, is directed and determined by God’s counsel and providence.


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Disposing - Better, the judgment or sentence which depends upon the lot. The lots were thrown into the gathered folds of a robe, and then drawn out. Where everything seemed the merest chance, there the faithful Israelite teacher recognized the guidance of a higher will.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
33. Seemingly the most fortuitous events are ordered by God.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
The lot is cast into the lap; as the ancient practice was in dividing inheritances, and deciding doubtful things…

The whole disposing thereof is of the Lord; the event, though casual to men, is directed and determined by God’s counsel and providence.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord; or "the judgment" (u) of it; the judgment that is to be made by it concerning persons or things; it being so directed and ordered by him as to fall upon the person it should; or to make known the thing in doubt and debate according to his will, in which all parties concerned should acquiesce. This is to be ascribed, not to blind chance and fortune, to the influence of the stars, or to any invisible created being, angel or devil, but to the Lord only; there is no such thing as chance, or events by chance; those events which seem most fortuitous or contingent are all disposed, ordered, and governed, by the sovereign will of God.
(u) "judicium ejus", Pagninus, Montanus, Mercerus, Cocceius, Gejerus, Schultens; "judicium eorum", Tigurine version.

Geneva Study Bible
The lot is cast into the lap; but its whole disposing is{p} from the LORD.
(p) So that there is nothing that ought to be attributed to fortune: for all things are determined in the counsel of God which will come to pass.
EXEGETICAL (ORIGINAL LANGUAGES)

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
33. the lap] from the folds of which it was drawn or shaken out.
The decision, which when appealed to as arbiter it pronounces, is not its own but Jehovah’s.

 
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