Do you agree with these sentiments

TomFL

Well-known member
In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child:

Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil.
 

Sketo

Active member
In light of Scripture, human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices occur through divine determinism.

For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This voluntary of evil act is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, according to these Texts.

Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20).

God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless.

In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
In light of Scripture, human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices occur through divine determinism.

For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This voluntary of evil act is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, according to these Texts.

Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20).

God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless.

In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.
So you agree with these sentiments correct ?
 

Sketo

Active member
So you agree with these sentiments correct ?
As long as you don’t put your “Neutral Strawman” spin on them then yes!

In light of Scripture, human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices occur through divine determinism.

For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This voluntary of evil act is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, according to these Texts.

Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20).

God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless.

In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
As long as you don’t put your “Neutral Strawman” spin on them then yes!
That is a strawman that exists only in your head

In any case who would I be strawmaning as Calvinist do not believe man is neutral.
Therefore your claims is not logical

But I will note your yes to the sentiment
 

Sketo

Active member
That is a strawman that exists only in your head

In any case who would I be strawmaning as Calvinist do not believe man is neutral.
Therefore your claims is not logical
Do you know what a Strawman is?
IF Calvinists did believe “man is neutral” your argument wouldn’t be considered a “strawman” would it?

It is precisely because Calvinists dont believe man is neutral that makes your argument a “strawman”!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Do you know what a Strawman is?
IF Calvinists did believe “man is neutral” your argument wouldn’t be considered a “strawman” would it?

It is precisely because Calvinists dont believe man is neutral that makes your argument a “strawman”!
I never claimed Calvinists hold man is neutral

I never even spoke about man being neutral

So where is the straw man ?

The op concerns determinism

God's meticulous determination of all things

It is a topic independent of man's nature
 

Sketo

Active member
I never claimed Calvinists hold man is neutral

I never even spoke about man being neutral

So where is the straw man ?

The op concerns determinism

God's meticulous determination of all things

It is a topic independent of man's nature
For example...
If God were to determine that Satan sin would God have to put the will to sin in him because it was not there in the first place? Why?
No! Because he is not “neutral” in his disposition towards sin!

If God were to determine that Satan not-sin would God have to put the will to not-sin in him because it was not there in the first place? Why?
Yes! Because he is not “neutral”! The will to not-sin is not there unless God puts it there!

Why would you assume that fallen man is any different?
Fallen Man is not “neutral”!

You assume that “meticulously determination” can only mean God has to insert sin it into man because it was not there in the first place! This assumes that man is “neutral” but he is not!

Example 2...
A marble on a perfectly level table will not move in any direction on its own and remain “neutral” until an outside force causes it to move, out of “neutral”, in a direction!

If you apply this concept to Satan or Man you create a “neutral strawman” because Satan, nor man, are “neutral” like the rock!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
For example...
If God were to determine that Satan sin would God have to put the will to sin in him because it was not there in the first place? Why?
No! Because he is not “neutral” in his disposition towards sin!

Can you prove Satan was created with a disposition to sin

the bible never states any such thing

Why would you assume that fallen man is any different? Fallen Man is not “neutral”!

No one ever stated he was

If there is a strawman here it is the one you are erecting


You assume that “meticulously determination” can only mean God has to insert sin it into man because it was not there in the first place! This assumes that man is “neutral” but he is not!

No I assume nothing of the kind

I simply note Calvinist creeds tell me God has determined everything that will ever happen before man was ever created and though he has foreknowledge he did not decree anything based upon foreknowledge

and can therefore see there is no other option than what God determined

Seems you have less understanding of Calvinist determinism than I

and that would include sin

A statement you in fact agreed with on another op
 

ReverendRV

Active member
In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child:

Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil.
Arminius on the Providence of God

My sentiments respecting the providence of God are these: It is present with, and presides over, all things; and all things, according to their essences, quantities, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, what is still more, I do not take away from the government of the divine providence even sins themselves, whether we take into our consideration their commencement, their progress, or their termination

 

TomFL

Well-known member
Arminius on the Providence of God

My sentiments respecting the providence of God are these: It is present with, and presides over, all things; and all things, according to their essences, quantities, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, what is still more, I do not take away from the government of the divine providence even sins themselves, whether we take into our consideration their commencement, their progress, or their termination

Well I am not an Arminian

And Arminians today are not Arminius Arminians
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child:

Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil.
Yes. But even what God permits, does so because He preordained it in the first place !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes. But even what God permits, does so because He preordained it in the first place !
Did you not understand

In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Did you not understand

In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory
I understood fine !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So you agree ?

In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory
lol, read what I stated !
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No it doesn't

All sin is not even mentioned there

and all sin does not have a redemptive purpose

Why do you change the subject, and bring up "redemptive purpose"?
Are you truly not able to follow a conversation, or are you doing it deliberately because you know you're losing the argument?

The question was, "Is God GLORIFIED by causally determining sin?"
And the answer is, YES.

Can you give an example of sin where the Bible says God is NOT glorified by it?
 
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