Do you agree with these sentiments

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Oh by the way, all weekend I've been testing my argument that the Euthyphro Dilemma is evidence FOR Christianity. I got an Atheist to tell me it looks like I solved the dilemma, so I'll write that Gospel Tract soon; boy, I have no idea how to fit that on one Gospel Tract! Of course I didn't solve it, I'm just a country Dog Catcher; the Spiritual Gift of Discernment solved it...

So since I solved it, why don't you do me a favor and start agreeing with my Teaching?
The Euthyphro Solution ~ by ReverendRV

Psalm 33:5 NIV; The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is a supposed debate between Socrates and Euthyphro, told to us by Plato; and Atheists use it to Debunk Theism. It basically asks, ‘Is Morality Good because God says it is Good, or does God say it’s Good because it is Good?’. This is like asking ‘Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg’, but asks which came first, Morality or God? The question makes us wonder if Morality exists outside of God instead of reflecting God’s Nature; thus there is no need for God to exist, for Morality to exist. Christians use the existence of Morality to try and prove the existence of God. Atheists remove this argument from the Arena of Ideas by raising on the dilemma. ~ A big problem for the Euthyphro Dilemma is Morality as a factor. Most Atheists believe in Moral Relativism, as in Morality is Relative to the Individual; IE “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Here’s the issue; Morality has to be Objective for Euthyphro to even have a Dilemma. If Morality is external to God, and if Morality is Arbitrary; Morality can’t be Good in and of itself. This is self-defeating in two ways. Atheists have to accept the existence of Objective Morality if they want to use the Euthyphro Dilemma; and secondly, Moral Relativism can’t be Good in and of itself…

If Objective Morality is Transcendent, and if it’s outside of God it is Transcendent; then we can still be judged, even if God doesn’t exist. We judge people based on our Consciences all the time. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people who Lie? If someone Lied about paying you back, then they’re Liars and Thieves! We know a Lie when we hear it; and when we speak it. Thou shalt not Lie is Inherently True to all of us, not Relative to some of us. Have you had another God other than the God of the Bible? This violates the First of the Ten Commandments; just as having your own Subjective Ethic which says you Can Lie and Steal, violates your Inherent Ethic. ~ These are only three of the Ten Commandments; if God judges you by Objective Morality, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or Hell?

The Euthyphro Dilemma is actually Evidence FOR the existence of God. Since God is Moral, he has to Hate Sin; but also has to make a way of escape. ~ For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal Life. Jesus Christ is the Son of God who lived a Sinless Human life and deserved his Righteousness. God is pleased by Holiness, so in order to be Saved, you need that kind of Righteousness. Jesus died in our place by shedding his blood on the Cross, but arose from the grave to newness of Life! We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the risen Jesus Christ, not by Works lest we Boast. Repent of your Sin and Confess Jesus Christ as your LORD God; then you will be Righteous, as he is Righteous. ~ Your Subjective Morality can’t exist outside of you, but can only exist because of you. If Subjective Morality exists because of you, you’ve proven that if God exists, he could be the Source of Morality; a Morality that is ‘because’ of him. God Objectifies Morality…

Luke 6:31 NIV; Do to others as you would have them do to you.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Huh. Gods will isn't resistable let that be clear!
Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

One must differentiate between God's determinative and permissive will
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No it's not possible for God to not be God. God's will can't be resisted. That is blasphemy!
What did you not understand

Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

One must differentiate between God's determinative and permissive will
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
What did you not understand

Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

One must differentiate between God's determinative and permissive will
That is not resisting God's will. That is resistance against the Holy Spirit
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Man cannot resist the will of God. It's impossible. It elevated man's will over God's will which is blasphemy
You are simply repeating yourself

with no consideration of the various wills of God

The fact is God's permissive will is resisted all the time

Do Christians sin ?

Is it not God's will that they not sin ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are simply repeating yourself

with no consideration of the various wills of God

The fact is God's permissive will is resisted all the time

Do Christians sin ?

Is it not God's will that they not sin ?
Truth needs to be repeated to combat error that is repeated. How can dust resist Almighty Will if God ? Thats insanity !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Truth needs to be repeated to combat error that is repeated. How can dust resist Almighty Will if God ? Thats insanity !
As typical you address nothing at all

You are simply repeating yourself

with no consideration of the various wills of God

The fact is God's permissive will is resisted all the time

Do Christians sin ?

Is it not God's will that they not sin ?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The Euthyphro Solution ~ by ReverendRV

Psalm 33:5 NIV; The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is a supposed debate between Socrates and Euthyphro, told to us by Plato; and Atheists use it to Debunk Theism. It basically asks, ‘Is Morality Good because God says it is Good, or does God say it’s Good because it is Good?’. This is like asking ‘Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg’, but asks which came first, Morality or God? The question makes us wonder if Morality exists outside of God instead of reflecting God’s Nature; thus there is no need for God to exist, for Morality to exist. Christians use the existence of Morality to try and prove the existence of God. Atheists remove this argument from the Arena of Ideas by raising on the dilemma. ~ A big problem for the Euthyphro Dilemma is Morality as a factor. Most Atheists believe in Moral Relativism, as in Morality is Relative to the Individual; IE “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Here’s the issue; Morality has to be Objective for Euthyphro to even have a Dilemma. If Morality is external to God, and if Morality is Arbitrary; Morality can’t be Good in and of itself. This is self-defeating in two ways. Atheists have to accept the existence of Objective Morality if they want to use the Euthyphro Dilemma; and secondly, Moral Relativism can’t be Good in and of itself…

If Objective Morality is Transcendent, and if it’s outside of God it is Transcendent; then we can still be judged, even if God doesn’t exist. We judge people based on our Consciences all the time. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people who Lie? If someone Lied about paying you back, then they’re Liars and Thieves! We know a Lie when we hear it; and when we speak it. Thou shalt not Lie is Inherently True to all of us, not Relative to some of us. Have you had another God other than the God of the Bible? This violates the First of the Ten Commandments; just as having your own Subjective Ethic which says you Can Lie and Steal, violates your Inherent Ethic. ~ These are only three of the Ten Commandments; if God judges you by Objective Morality, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or Hell?

The Euthyphro Dilemma is actually Evidence FOR the existence of God. Since God is Moral, he has to Hate Sin; but also has to make a way of escape. ~ For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal Life. Jesus Christ is the Son of God who lived a Sinless Human life and deserved his Righteousness. God is pleased by Holiness, so in order to be Saved, you need that kind of Righteousness. Jesus died in our place by shedding his blood on the Cross, but arose from the grave to newness of Life! We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the risen Jesus Christ, not by Works lest we Boast. Repent of your Sin and Confess Jesus Christ as your LORD God; then you will be Righteous, as he is Righteous. ~ Your Subjective Morality can’t exist outside of you, but can only exist because of you. If Subjective Morality exists because of you, you’ve proven that if God exists, he could be the Source of Morality; a Morality that is ‘because’ of him. God Objectifies Morality…

Luke 6:31 NIV; Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Thank you. Interesting. I hadn't been aware of that discussion, as I have too much on my plate to look at everything. However, judging by what you have written here, I don't see how you have solved the "dilemma". I agree that if "objective morality" exists (independent of God), that discredits the "subjective morality" of atheism. But that still does not solve the problem of God vs. objective morality. Is something good because God has decreed it to be good, or is it independently and intrinsically good, irrespective of whether God exists or not? That is an interesting dilemma. In Genesis we are told that God pronounced everything that he had created "good". Was it "good" because God had previously determined the criteria for what is "good" and what is not good, or was it "good" because there is an independent criteria of "goodness" that God adheres to? If God has determined the standard of "goodness," then who is to say that he can't change it? And if he didn't create the standard, where did it came from? In the Old Testament God commands us to be "holy" as "he is holy". That implies that there is a standard of "holiness" that God adheres to, and wants us to do the same. Where did that standard come from? Did God create it himself, or does it exist independently of him? If he created it himself, who is to say that he cannot change it? If he didn't create it, where did it come from?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thank you. Interesting. I hadn't been aware of that discussion, as I have too much on my plate to look at everything. However, judging by what you have written here, I don't see how you have solved the "dilemma". I agree that if "objective morality" exists (independent of God), that discredits the "subjective morality" of atheism. But that still does not solve the problem of God vs. objective morality. Is something good because God has decreed it to be good, or is it independently and intrinsically good, irrespective of whether God exists or not? That is an interesting dilemma. In Genesis we are told that God pronounced everything that he had created "good". Was it "good" because God had previously determined the criteria for what is "good" and what is not good, or was it "good" because there is an independent criteria of "goodness" that God adheres to? If God has determined the standard of "goodness," then who is to say that he can't change it? And if he didn't create the standard, where did it came from? In the Old Testament God commands us to be "holy" as "he is holy". That implies that there is a standard of "holiness" that God adheres to, and wants us to do the same. Where did that standard come from? Did God create it himself, or does it exist independently of him? If he created it himself, who is to say that he cannot change it? If he didn't create it, where did it come from?
I think my closing statement in the Gospel Tract addresses the dilemma. "Your Subjective Morality can’t exist outside of you because it's personal, but can only exist 'because' of you. If Subjective Morality exists because of you, you’ve proven that if God exists, he could be the Source of Morality; a Morality that is ‘because’ of him. God Objectifies Morality…"

There are a lot of other things which could be said; but I struggle with putting 'enough' on a One-Page Gospel Tract; of course there is much more to say about the dilemma than I said. I added some words which needed to be in my closing Statement highlighted in this Post to you. I think I'll re-edit the Gospel Tract and try to fit the added words in it. But a One-Page Gospel Tract is a good place to start off a discussion about the Euthyphro Dilemma...

Other Solutions I didn't add are the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union, as they also solve the Dilemma. As a Mormon, you will disagree; but what if I could say something that gets you to say "Thank you. Interesting" once more? I know that this is not the place to discuss that; or the discussion could be Reported. Even discussing the Euthyphro Dilemma here is hijacking the Thread and has nothing to do with Arminianism versus Calvinism; technically it doesn't belong here...
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
As typical you address nothing at all

You are simply repeating yourself

with no consideration of the various wills of God

The fact is God's permissive will is resisted all the time

Do Christians sin ?

Is it not God's will that they not sin ?
Anything you utter is addressed by the simple comment, How can finite man, less than dust resist the Will of the Almighty, that's utter disrespect to God and blasphemy ! Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thank you. Interesting. I hadn't been aware of that discussion, as I have too much on my plate to look at everything. However, judging by what you have written here, I don't see how you have solved the "dilemma". I agree that if "objective morality" exists (independent of God), that discredits the "subjective morality" of atheism. But that still does not solve the problem of God vs. objective morality. Is something good because God has decreed it to be good, or is it independently and intrinsically good, irrespective of whether God exists or not? That is an interesting dilemma. In Genesis we are told that God pronounced everything that he had created "good". Was it "good" because God had previously determined the criteria for what is "good" and what is not good, or was it "good" because there is an independent criteria of "goodness" that God adheres to? If God has determined the standard of "goodness," then who is to say that he can't change it? And if he didn't create the standard, where did it came from? In the Old Testament God commands us to be "holy" as "he is holy". That implies that there is a standard of "holiness" that God adheres to, and wants us to do the same. Where did that standard come from? Did God create it himself, or does it exist independently of him? If he created it himself, who is to say that he cannot change it? If he didn't create it, where did it come from?
Ah, it was easier to Edit than I thought. Read it again, because this morning I edited it then too, to make the narrative flow better in other places; especially the first paragraph...

The Euthyphro Solution ~ by ReverendRV

Psalm 33:5 NIV; The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is a supposed debate between Socrates and Euthyphro, told to us by Plato; and Atheists use it to Debunk Theism. It basically asks, ‘Is Morality Good because God Decrees it to be Good, or does God recognize that Morality is Good in and of itself?’. This is like asking ‘Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg’ but instead asks ‘Which came first, Morality or God?’ The question makes us wonder if Morality exists outside of God instead of reflecting God’s Nature; ergo, there is no need for God to exist for Morality to exist. Christians use the existence of Morality to try and prove the existence of God. Atheists remove this argument from the Arena of Ideas by raising the dilemma. ~ A big problem for the Euthyphro Dilemma is Morality as a factor. Most Atheists believe in Moral Relativism, IE Morality is Relative to the Individual. Here’s the issue; Morality has to be Objective for Euthyphro to even have a Dilemma. If Morality is external to God, but this Morality is Arbitrary; Morality can’t be Good in and of itself. This is self-defeating in two ways. Atheists have to accept the existence of Objective Morality if they want to use the Euthyphro Dilemma; and secondly, Moral Relativism can’t be Good in and of itself…

If Objective Morality is Transcendent, (and if it’s outside of God, it is Transcendent); then we can still be judged, even if God doesn’t exist. We judge people based on our Consciences all the time. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people who Lie? If someone Lied about paying you back, then they’re Liars and Thieves! We know a Lie when we hear it; and when we speak it. Thou shalt not Lie is Inherently True to all of us, not Relatively true to some of us. Have you had another God other than the God of the Bible? This violates the First Commandment; just as having your own Subjective Ethic which says you Can Lie and Steal, violates your Inherent Ethic. ~ These are only three of the Ten Commandments; if God judges you by Objective Morality, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or to Hell?

The Euthyphro Dilemma is actually Evidence FOR the existence of God. Since God is Moral, he has to Hate Sin; and also has to make a way of escape. ~ For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal Life. Jesus Christ is the Son of God who lived a Sinless Human life and deserved his perfect record. God is pleased by Holiness, so in order to be Saved, we also need that kind of Righteousness. Jesus died in our place by shedding his blood on the Cross, but arose from the grave to newness of Life! We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the risen Jesus Christ, not by Works lest we Boast. Repent of your Sin and Confess Jesus Christ as your LORD God; then you will be Righteous, as he is Righteous. ~ Your Subjective Morality can’t exist outside of you because it’s personal, but only exists because of you. If Subjective Morality exists because of you, if God exists he could be the Source of Morality; a Morality that is ‘because’ of him. God Objectifies Morality…

Luke 6:31 NIV; Do to others as you would have them do to you.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Anything you utter is addressed by the simple comment, How can finite man, less than dust resist the Will of the Almighty, that's utter disrespect to God and blasphemy ! Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Did you address what was stated

You are simply repeating yourself

with no consideration of the various wills of God

The fact is God's permissive will is resisted all the time

Do Christians sin ?

Is it not God's will that they not sin ?
 
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