Do you believe the man Christ Jesus contains all there is of the person of Christ Jesus?

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Do you believe the man Christ Jesus contains all there is of the person of Christ Jesus?

Yes, “Christ Jesus” is a name for GOD in the universe as a MAN.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.


TRINITARIANS...

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?


And, according to your Trinitarian view...

Does “himself” in Philippians 2:6 refer to “the person of the MAN Christ Jesus“?

Philippians 2:6... Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Does “me” in John 17:5 have the exact same referent as “himself” in Philippians 2:6?

John 17:5... And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I say Yes, both pronouns refer to the man Christ Jesus.
 
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Dizerner

Well-known member
He can't be "made in the likeness of men" if he always was in the likeness of men.

It's simple logic—you've made Jesus nothing more than a human, when he's the infinite creator of all things that existed before time began.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
What do Trinitarian's mean ( I'm including myself here) when we talk about the three Divine Persons of the Trinity?

In our temporal experience a person is easy to identify because every person has two eyes one nose and mouth one body and so every person experiences the world through this mechanism. Namely we have the sense of sight, and hearing, and taste, and touch, and through these senses we experience the world.

But personhood is not the senses it's whatever is behind the senses that is perceiving the world. This is a useful insight because we can say that a person is a center of consciousness from which perception can be interpreted. Now some may argue that when someone dies then personhood is lost because the lights go out in the body and there is no longer any perception.

I would suggest that that is a confusion. The interpreter is no longer in the body, but the interpreter who is the person is alive and well even after the body dies. So perhaps the easiest way of understanding what a person is is to understand that a person is a center of consciousness.

This might be a rather simple conception of what a person is, but the important point is that it is an accurate conception so far as it goes. I believe you point out above that God is spirit and that is true. I'm not going to try to delve deeply into how much broader the notion of spirit is than the notion of a center of consciousness but I'll simply note the fact at this point.

We're someone challenged in thinking about a spirit divorced from a body in the same way they were challenged in conceiving of a center of consciousness divorced from a body, because this is really outside of our observable experience so we have to think about this conceptually. Furthermore we are challenged by the idea of a spirit having more than one center of consciousness.

How do we know that we have this part of the concept right? Because when Jesus prayed to the Father he was not suffering from multiple personality syndrome, this unitary God is genuinely more than one person. At this point you might say this raises more questions than it answers, because so far this doesn't seem very unified. This is where I think the other crucial notion of the Trinity comes into play. And that is that God is one in nature, or sometimes we say God is one in essence.

To discuss this attribute of essence I'm going to use the word nature because it's closer to the way that we use language in this day and age. What do we mean when we say that someone is very "good-natured?" That actually can get into a rather long discussion so I'll simplify it. What do we mean if we say that your dog is good-natured? Well, we're talking about a constellation of behavioral attributes that we find pleasing. So if we take that up one level and say the person is good-natured we might say that they have a constellation of behavioral attributes that are virtuous. Basically what we're saying is in any kind of situation ordinary or extraordinary we have good reason to believe in the virtuous response of the actor. Anyone who has observed more than one dog or cat or horse knows that all dogs have a nature that are more similar to other dogs than any cat, and every cat has a nature that is more similar to every other cat than any dog, nevertheless every dog has a nature that is unique to that particular dog, and none other. That is to say no two dogs have exactly the same dog nature. So if we take that up one level, and say that no two humans have exactly the same human nature we immediately recognize this to be true also. Of course this does not diminish the fact that every human nature is more similar, than any human is to the nature of a dog.

So now that we're thinking about what a nature actually is, we can plug this back into the description of the Trinity. We had this problem of how is God unified when we have spent quite a few words discussing the fact that God has three centers of consciousness? The doctrine is God is one in nature or essence. At this point you might be saying, but everything we just said about nature, is that every human has a unique human nature, and every dog has a unique dog nature, and every cat has a unique cat nature, how can the three Persons of the Trinity have one nature? Because were simply stating a fact about God without having to suggest that it has a direct parallel in nature. There are quite a few ways in which God is completely unique. He's transcendent for example. He exists independent of the universe he exists in the universe and outside of the universe before the universe and if there is such a category as after the universe he will exist there too. That is very different from us. If you remove the universe, and don't create some other realm for us to inhabit, you remove the possibility of us too. So in point of fact, we can deal with these concepts quite handily without having to find a parallel in the created universe with which to delineate the concept itself.

God is the singular Spirit with three centers of consciousness, and one undivided nature.

Since the gospels are the good news about Jesus Christ, we should say something about this third Person of the Trinity. For clarity, when I'm speaking of the third person of the trinity I'm going to say "The Eternal Word." And when I'm talking about that human nature I'm going to talk about "Jesus of Nazareth." So Jesus Christ is both "The Eternal Word" and "Jesus of Nazareth." So in Jesus Christ we have both the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth, and the undivided nature of God in The Eternal Word.

I think this is a pretty good start. With all of this in mind we could address any element of your OP that you think is most prescient.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
He can't be "made in the likeness of men" if he always was in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:6-7... Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

I believe “him” highlighted above refers to Jesus with an immortal human body.

In other words, I believe Jesus started out with an immortal human body (like he has now). He exchanged his immortal human body for a mortal human body (to be “made in the likeness of men”) to die on the cross.

What do YOU believe “him” highlighted above refers to?

Hey, you forgot to answer the questions in the OP.

Here was the first...

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
This is a useful insight because we can say that a person is a center of consciousness from which perception can be interpreted.
We had this problem of how is God unified when we have spent quite a few words discussing the fact that God has three centers of consciousness?

According to your Trinitarian view...

Does the person called the Son of God have ONE “center of consciousness from which perception can be interpreted” or TWO?

I say ONE, but I am not a Trinitarian.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
According to your Trinitarian view...

Does the person called the Son of God have ONE “center of consciousness from which perception can be interpreted” or TWO?

I say ONE, but I am not a Trinitarian.
I agree with you as a Trinitarian.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
I agree with you as a Trinitarian.

Does the ONE “center of consciousness from which perception can be interpreted” of the person of the Son of God know the day and hour he will return?

I say No.

MARK 13:32... But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Yes, “Christ Jesus” is a name for GOD in the universe as a MAN.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.


TRINITARIANS...

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?


And, according to your Trinitarian view...

Does “himself” in Philippians 2:6 refer to “the person of the MAN Christ Jesus“?

Philippians 2:6... Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Does “me” in John 17:5 have the exact same referent as “himself” in Philippians 2:6?

John 17:5... And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I say Yes, both pronouns refer to the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus is NOT the name of God.
That name is found at Matthew 28:19.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Jesus is NOT the name of God.
That name is found at Matthew 28:19.

Are you able to answer any of the questions in the OP......

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?


And, according to your Trinitarian view...

Does “himself” in Philippians 2:6 refer to “the person of the MAN Christ Jesus“?

Philippians 2:6... Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Does “me” in John 17:5 have the exact same referent as “himself” in Philippians 2:6?

John 17:5... And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I say Yes, both pronouns refer to the man Christ Jesus.
 

aeg4971

Active member
He can't be "made in the likeness of men" if he always was in the likeness of men.

It's simple logic—you've made Jesus nothing more than a human, when he's the infinite creator of all things that existed before time began.
Well at least you get my point every time I post from your own words.

....... Alan
 

aeg4971

Active member
What do Trinitarian's mean ( I'm including myself here) when we talk about the three Divine Persons of the Trinity?

In our temporal experience a person is easy to identify because every person has two eyes one nose and mouth one body and so every person experiences the world through this mechanism. Namely we have the sense of sight, and hearing, and taste, and touch, and through these senses we experience the world.

But personhood is not the senses it's whatever is behind the senses that is perceiving the world. This is a useful insight because we can say that a person is a center of consciousness from which perception can be interpreted. Now some may argue that when someone dies then personhood is lost because the lights go out in the body and there is no longer any perception.

I would suggest that that is a confusion. The interpreter is no longer in the body, but the interpreter who is the person is alive and well even after the body dies. So perhaps the easiest way of understanding what a person is is to understand that a person is a center of consciousness.

This might be a rather simple conception of what a person is, but the important point is that it is an accurate conception so far as it goes. I believe you point out above that God is spirit and that is true. I'm not going to try to delve deeply into how much broader the notion of spirit is than the notion of a center of consciousness but I'll simply note the fact at this point.

We're someone challenged in thinking about a spirit divorced from a body in the same way they were challenged in conceiving of a center of consciousness divorced from a body, because this is really outside of our observable experience so we have to think about this conceptually. Furthermore we are challenged by the idea of a spirit having more than one center of consciousness.

How do we know that we have this part of the concept right? Because when Jesus prayed to the Father he was not suffering from multiple personality syndrome, this unitary God is genuinely more than one person. At this point you might say this raises more questions than it answers, because so far this doesn't seem very unified. This is where I think the other crucial notion of the Trinity comes into play. And that is that God is one in nature, or sometimes we say God is one in essence.

To discuss this attribute of essence I'm going to use the word nature because it's closer to the way that we use language in this day and age. What do we mean when we say that someone is very "good-natured?" That actually can get into a rather long discussion so I'll simplify it. What do we mean if we say that your dog is good-natured? Well, we're talking about a constellation of behavioral attributes that we find pleasing. So if we take that up one level and say the person is good-natured we might say that they have a constellation of behavioral attributes that are virtuous. Basically what we're saying is in any kind of situation ordinary or extraordinary we have good reason to believe in the virtuous response of the actor. Anyone who has observed more than one dog or cat or horse knows that all dogs have a nature that are more similar to other dogs than any cat, and every cat has a nature that is more similar to every other cat than any dog, nevertheless every dog has a nature that is unique to that particular dog, and none other. That is to say no two dogs have exactly the same dog nature. So if we take that up one level, and say that no two humans have exactly the same human nature we immediately recognize this to be true also. Of course this does not diminish the fact that every human nature is more similar, than any human is to the nature of a dog.

So now that we're thinking about what a nature actually is, we can plug this back into the description of the Trinity. We had this problem of how is God unified when we have spent quite a few words discussing the fact that God has three centers of consciousness? The doctrine is God is one in nature or essence. At this point you might be saying, but everything we just said about nature, is that every human has a unique human nature, and every dog has a unique dog nature, and every cat has a unique cat nature, how can the three Persons of the Trinity have one nature? Because were simply stating a fact about God without having to suggest that it has a direct parallel in nature. There are quite a few ways in which God is completely unique. He's transcendent for example. He exists independent of the universe he exists in the universe and outside of the universe before the universe and if there is such a category as after the universe he will exist there too. That is very different from us. If you remove the universe, and don't create some other realm for us to inhabit, you remove the possibility of us too. So in point of fact, we can deal with these concepts quite handily without having to find a parallel in the created universe with which to delineate the concept itself.

God is the singular Spirit with three centers of consciousness, and one undivided nature.

Since the gospels are the good news about Jesus Christ, we should say something about this third Person of the Trinity. For clarity, when I'm speaking of the third person of the trinity I'm going to say "The Eternal Word." And when I'm talking about that human nature I'm going to talk about "Jesus of Nazareth." So Jesus Christ is both "The Eternal Word" and "Jesus of Nazareth." So in Jesus Christ we have both the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth, and the undivided nature of God in The Eternal Word.

I think this is a pretty good start. With all of this in mind we could address any element of your OP that you think is most prescient.
Hello Thistle . I never forget a comment you made several years ago when you said, "The words coming out of our mouths and how we understand are not always the same". That actually is the sentiment of every Orthodox Post Apostolic non English speaking theologian in history.


........ Alan
 
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johnny guitar

Well-known member
Are you able to answer any of the questions in the OP......

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?


And, according to your Trinitarian view...

Does “himself” in Philippians 2:6 refer to “the person of the MAN Christ Jesus“?

Philippians 2:6... Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Does “me” in John 17:5 have the exact same referent as “himself” in Philippians 2:6?

John 17:5... And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I say Yes, both pronouns refer to the man Christ Jesus.
Yep. Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1.
NO. Himself refers to The Son of God PRIOR to His becoming a Man.
NO, Both pronouns refer to The Divine Son of God PRIOR to becoming a Man.
 

aeg4971

Active member
Are you able to answer any of the questions in the OP......

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?


And, according to your Trinitarian view...

Does “himself” in Philippians 2:6 refer to “the person of the MAN Christ Jesus“?

Philippians 2:6... Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Does “me” in John 17:5 have the exact same referent as “himself” in Philippians 2:6?

John 17:5... And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I say Yes, both pronouns refer to the man Christ Jesus.
Don't you like many argue," Jesus is the name of God above every name"? Such a notion could only in First Principle signify Divinity, which is the Son Person, or nature of God the Father. For it is His Nativity which is His Personal property. It clearly follows this name Jesus the Christ of itself signifies God manifested in the flesh. Jehovah or YHWH is Salvation. The King of Israel and His Redeemer. My Lord this man the Jesus the Christ is Expressly Manifested by way of Form ,Image ,Son ,Word of God. And the Word was God Himself .

...... Alan
 
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aeg4971

Active member
What do Trinitarian's mean ( I'm including myself here) when we talk about the three Divine Persons of the Trinity?

In our temporal experience a person is easy to identify because every person has two eyes one nose and mouth one body and so every person experiences the world through this mechanism. Namely we have the sense of sight, and hearing, and taste, and touch, and through these senses we experience the world.

But personhood is not the senses it's whatever is behind the senses that is perceiving the world. This is a useful insight because we can say that a person is a center of consciousness from which perception can be interpreted. Now some may argue that when someone dies then personhood is lost because the lights go out in the body and there is no longer any perception.

I would suggest that that is a confusion. The interpreter is no longer in the body, but the interpreter who is the person is alive and well even after the body dies. So perhaps the easiest way of understanding what a person is is to understand that a person is a center of consciousness.

This might be a rather simple conception of what a person is, but the important point is that it is an accurate conception so far as it goes. I believe you point out above that God is spirit and that is true. I'm not going to try to delve deeply into how much broader the notion of spirit is than the notion of a center of consciousness but I'll simply note the fact at this point.

We're someone challenged in thinking about a spirit divorced from a body in the same way they were challenged in conceiving of a center of consciousness divorced from a body, because this is really outside of our observable experience so we have to think about this conceptually. Furthermore we are challenged by the idea of a spirit having more than one center of consciousness.

How do we know that we have this part of the concept right? Because when Jesus prayed to the Father he was not suffering from multiple personality syndrome, this unitary God is genuinely more than one person. At this point you might say this raises more questions than it answers, because so far this doesn't seem very unified. This is where I think the other crucial notion of the Trinity comes into play. And that is that God is one in nature, or sometimes we say God is one in essence.

To discuss this attribute of essence I'm going to use the word nature because it's closer to the way that we use language in this day and age. What do we mean when we say that someone is very "good-natured?" That actually can get into a rather long discussion so I'll simplify it. What do we mean if we say that your dog is good-natured? Well, we're talking about a constellation of behavioral attributes that we find pleasing. So if we take that up one level and say the person is good-natured we might say that they have a constellation of behavioral attributes that are virtuous. Basically what we're saying is in any kind of situation ordinary or extraordinary we have good reason to believe in the virtuous response of the actor. Anyone who has observed more than one dog or cat or horse knows that all dogs have a nature that are more similar to other dogs than any cat, and every cat has a nature that is more similar to every other cat than any dog, nevertheless every dog has a nature that is unique to that particular dog, and none other. That is to say no two dogs have exactly the same dog nature. So if we take that up one level, and say that no two humans have exactly the same human nature we immediately recognize this to be true also. Of course this does not diminish the fact that every human nature is more similar, than any human is to the nature of a dog.

So now that we're thinking about what a nature actually is, we can plug this back into the description of the Trinity. We had this problem of how is God unified when we have spent quite a few words discussing the fact that God has three centers of consciousness? The doctrine is God is one in nature or essence. At this point you might be saying, but everything we just said about nature, is that every human has a unique human nature, and every dog has a unique dog nature, and every cat has a unique cat nature, how can the three Persons of the Trinity have one nature? Because were simply stating a fact about God without having to suggest that it has a direct parallel in nature. There are quite a few ways in which God is completely unique. He's transcendent for example. He exists independent of the universe he exists in the universe and outside of the universe before the universe and if there is such a category as after the universe he will exist there too. That is very different from us. If you remove the universe, and don't create some other realm for us to inhabit, you remove the possibility of us too. So in point of fact, we can deal with these concepts quite handily without having to find a parallel in the created universe with which to delineate the concept itself.

God is the singular Spirit with three centers of consciousness, and one undivided nature.

Since the gospels are the good news about Jesus Christ, we should say something about this third Person of the Trinity. For clarity, when I'm speaking of the third person of the trinity I'm going to say "The Eternal Word." And when I'm talking about that human nature I'm going to talk about "Jesus of Nazareth." So Jesus Christ is both "The Eternal Word" and "Jesus of Nazareth." So in Jesus Christ we have both the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth, and the undivided nature of God in The Eternal Word.

I think this is a pretty good start. With all of this in mind we could address any element of your OP that you think is most prescient.

We actually are not all that challenges by ancient non English speaking standards. We are just more modern humanistic English speakers. When anti Trinitarians assert ," the logos and spirit is merely personified in activity , or when modern Trinitarians assert," God has three centers of consciousness, the ancient Latin Catholic doctors says, We mean a "Three-fold Consciousness " by way of Generation of the Word in God, and the Procession of Spiration". So the Greeks say," Tres Hypostases un Ousia". Whereas in like the English speakers say," One Essence in Three Persons. Therefore this name Trinity does not imply diversity in God or that God is many, but rather the name Trinity signifies that ," God Knows the Many. One Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
.


...... Alan
 
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Yahchristian

Well-known member
Don't you like many argue," Jesus is the name of God above every name"? Such a notion could only in First Principle signify Divinity, which is the Son Person, or nature of God the Father.

My question was...

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?

I think you are saying your answer is...

Philippians 2:9... Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Correct?

So you believe “him” in that verse refers to the “Jesus’ nature of God” rather than “the MAN Jesus”.

Correct?

Whereas I believe “him” refers to “the MAN Jesus“, so God exalted “the MAN Jesus“ since the “nature of God” needs no “exalting”.
 

aeg4971

Active member
My question was...

Can you post a verse where the name Christ Jesus refers to anything OTHER than the MAN Christ Jesus?

I think you are saying your answer is...

Philippians 2:9... Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Correct?

So you believe “him” in that verse refers to the “Jesus’ nature of God” rather than “the MAN Jesus”.

Correct?

Whereas I believe “him” refers to “the MAN Jesus“, so God exalted “the MAN Jesus“ since the “nature of God” needs no “exalting”.
The name Jesus is predicated to a Person who is both God and man. Scriptures are in fact written in a manner that could not separate the nature of God from this flesh ,these bones, and this blood. Why do you insist on some division when the Holy Writ clearly does not?

19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

...... Alan
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Jesus Christ never has, and never will be, just a man.
The name Jesus is predicated to a Person who is both God and man. Scriptures are in fact written in a manner that could not separate the nature of God from this flesh ,these bones, and this blood.

If you claim it is not possible to separate the nature of God from Jesus’ flesh...

Did “God and man” die when Jesus was crucified?
 

Thistle

Well-known member
We actually are not all that challenges by ancient non English speaking standards. We are just more modern humanistic English speakers. When anti Trinitarians assert ," the logos and spirit is merely personified in activity , or when modern Trinitarians assert," God has three centers of consciousness, the ancient Latin Catholic doctors says, We mean a "Three-fold Consciousness " by way of Generation of the Word in God, and the Procession of Spiration". So the Greeks say," Tres Hypostases un Ousia". Whereas in like the English speakers say," One Essence in Three Persons. Therefore this name Trinity does not imply diversity in God or that God is many, but rather the name Trinity signifies that ," God Knows the Many. One Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
.


...... Alan
Thank you for that Alan, I appreciate that.
 
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