Doctrine of Unconditional Election

brightfame52 said:
Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
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Except that has nothing to do with unconditional election to salvation

and concerns the choice of Israel over Edom

Mal. 1:1–4 —KJV
Ҧ The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.”

We know all Israel was not saved

and we have no information saying all Edom was damned
 
Theo1689 said:
Only if you define "they body of Christ" as "anyone except Calvinists".

I hate to break this to you, but sadly the vast MAJORITY of "the body of Christ" couldn't "exegete" their way out of a paper bag.

And for those who actually KNOW how to do proper exegesis, they come up with a Calvinistic result SIGNIFICANTLY more often than not.
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I could probably "exegete" my way out of a paper bag If it was wet. But I'll tell you the way I came to believe in Calvinism. I've been a Christian for maybe 20 years and never heard of Calvinism. Then I ran into some stuff on the Internet from RC Sproul about reformed theology and decided to see what that was all about.

To make a long story short I just read the Bible and Calvinism just seemed to make the most sense to me. I was reading it with no prejudiced for either side But it was just clear to me that Calvinism is what the Bible taught. That was probably 15 years ago and since then I've never seen a non-Calvinist successfully debate their theology. They always run out of gas and then they get angry. Every time. Same thing happens here. I'm not that highly educated but I can tell when someone's making sense and when someone else is making nonsense. It's not really that hard.

I admit there are some tricky posters here that are pretty darn good at hiding their deception. That's why I'm glad there are a lot of people here from the other camp the know what their talking about and point the deceptions out.
 
Theo1689 said:
Maybe the reason that "most of the body of Christ rejecting that understanding" is NOT because it is "not[...] crystal clear".

Maybe the reason they reject it is because they proudly want to have some control over their salvation?
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Exactly, that's what I always say "somehow someway they want to have their hand in it". Like God needs a hand with His own plan of salvation.
 
Redeemed said:
Exactly, that's what I always say "somehow someway they want to have their hand in it". Like God needs a hand with His own plan of salvation.
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Or maybe they just see that Divine determinism of all things is just inconsistent with the bible

and does not magnify the holiness and love of God
 
ReverendRV said:
But it is taught. Your objection is a paper shield. It matters not on who Runs or on who Wills, but matters on God...
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Nope

There is no evidence for it

all that shows God sets the grounds upon which he shows mercy not that he arbitrarily applies it

The Jews was Paul's interlocutor not only did Jews believe they were owed mercy because of their national history with God but the objector basically argues if God is using the Jew to further his plan (in this case the crucifixion of Christ) why is God finding fault with him

What follows is a defense of God right to use him as he sees fit

Bottom-line however the Jew was cutoff because of his own unbelief

Rom. 11:19–20 —ESV
“Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.”
 
TomFL said:
Nope

There is no evidence for it

all that shows God sets the grounds upon which he shows mercy not that he arbitrarily applies it

The Jews was Paul's interlocutor not only did Jews believe they were owed mercy because of their national history with God but the objector basically argues if God is using the Jew to further his plan (in this case the crucifixion of Christ) why is God finding fault with him

What follows is a defense of God right to use him as he sees fit

Bottom-line however the Jew was cutoff because of his own unbelief

Rom. 11:19–20 —ESV
“Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.”
Click to expand...

TomFL said:
Nope

There is no evidence for it

all that shows God sets the grounds upon which he shows mercy not that he arbitrarily applies it

The Jews was Paul's interlocutor not only did Jews believe they were owed mercy because of their national history with God but the objector basically argues if God is using the Jew to further his plan (in this case the crucifixion of Christ) why is God finding fault with him

What follows is a defense of God right to use him as he sees fit

Bottom-line however the Jew was cutoff because of his own unbelief

Rom. 11:19–20 —ESV
“Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.”
Click to expand...
Romans 9
Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.k 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badl—in order that God’s purposem in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d n 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e o

14 What then shall we say?p Is God unjust? Not at all!q 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f r

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.


Im getting tired, Ill have to let the others wrestle with you over this...

Pray for us...
 
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