Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Manfred

Well-known member
Nope, that's right from the truth and reality of God. Maybe you should try it some time before your lights go out and you find yourself in the abyss.
Why not quote scripture?
Do you believe all of scripture is the inspired word of God and sufficient.
Do you reject some scripture and hold others as scripture.
What is your stance silly?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
If you don't believe that God is the truth and reality, then you are NOT a Christian.
Who's truth and whose reality?
You say God cannot know you, He has to have faith that you exist.
Is that your truth and your reality?

Why not show the scripture supporting this, because at it stands this is NOTHING more than your truth and reality and not God breathed.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Faith is belief in the truth and reality of God.

According to you God hopes you exist, and because He has not seen you he is convicted that you do exist.

Explain this gnostism?

Strawman. No, that would be according to you, as you're the one who said "God hopes you exist" and then pretended that it was "according to" me.

Belief makes the truth and reality known to us, hope is to want something to happen.

You can't exist in His reality and Kingdom unless He believed and believes you exist, as the truth and reality had to believe in and for you in order to take you from a unbeliever and to make you a believer, because we couldn't do it on our own. At Calvary Christ not only died for us, but being truth incarnate (truth itself) he had to believe for us as well, in order to complete the requirements of God's perfect reality and Kingdom.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Faith is belief in the truth and reality of God.



Strawman. No, that would be according to you, as you're the one who said "God hopes you exist" and then pretended that it was "according to" me.
I gave a definition from Hebrews for faith.

You claim God has to believe you exist.

How did I misrepresent you?
Belief makes the truth and reality known to us, hope is to want something to happen.
So which books of the Bible do you accept as scripture and which ones stand in the way of your teachings?


You can't exist in His reality and Kingdom unless He believed and believes you exist, as the truth and reality had to believe in and for you in order to take you from a unbeliever and to make you a believer, because we couldn't do it on our own. At Calvary Christ not only died for us, but being truth incarnate (truth itself) he had to believe for us as well, in order to complete the requirements of God's perfect reality and Kingdom.
Show scripture not conjecture.
Many cults make claims like you are doing now. All your claims without a solid Biblical foundation remain nothing more than cultist.

So which scriptures are your reality?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Why not quote scripture?
Do you believe all of scripture is the inspired word of God and sufficient.
Do you reject some scripture and hold others as scripture.
What is your stance silly?

All Scripture is inspired by God and sufficient to make the Spirit of truth come alive in the believer. For the Spirit does illuminate God's way that He is made known to us and every bit of it requires belief. But if you have another way, then say what it is. I have seen no sculpture that contradicts what I say, as if I did I would say it. Faith is the truth the believer has in and about the reality of God.

And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- (Romans 3:21-23)

whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus. Where then [is] the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith: (Romans 3:25-27)

we by nature Jews, and not sinners of the nations, having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' And if, seeking to be declared righteous in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, [is] then Christ a ministrant of sin? let it not be! (Galatians 2:15-17)

for if the things I threw down, these again I build up, a transgressor I set myself forth; for I through law, did die, that to God I may live; with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me; I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness [be] through law -- then Christ died in vain. (Galatians 2:18-21)

the law, then, [is] against the promises of God? -- let it not be! for if a law was given that was able to make alive, truly by law there would have been the righteousness, but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, (Galatians 3:21-23)

whom I did send unto you for this very thing, that ye might know the things concerning us, and that he might comfort your hearts. Peace to the brethren, and love, with faith, from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ! The grace with all those loving our Lord Jesus Christ -- undecayingly! Amen. (Ephesians 6:22-24)

yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, (Philippians 3:8-10)

And thou -- be remaining in the things which thou didst learn and wast entrusted with, having known from whom thou didst learn, and because from a babe the Holy Writings thou hast known, which are able to make thee wise -- to salvation, through faith that [is] in Christ Jesus; every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:14-16)

for which cause also these things I suffer, but I am not ashamed, for I have known in whom I have believed, and have been persuaded that he is able that which I have committed to him to guard -- to that day.
The pattern hold thou of sound words, which from me thou didst hear, in faith and love that [is] in Christ Jesus; the good thing committed guard thou through the Holy Spirit that is dwelling in us; (2 Timothy 1:12-14)

John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. (Revelation 1:4-6)

and Peter having remembered saith to him, `Rabbi, lo, the fig-tree that thou didst curse is dried up.' And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God; for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say. (Mark 11:21-23)

and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.' And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!' (Revelation 14:11-13)
 

Manfred

Well-known member
All Scripture is inspired by God and sufficient to make the Spirit of truth come alive in the believer. For the Spirit does illuminate God's way that He is made known to us and every bit of it requires belief. But if you have another way, then say what it is. I have seen no sculpture that contradicts what I say, as if I did I would say it. Faith is the truth the believer has in and about the reality of God.

And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- (Romans 3:21-23)

whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus. Where then [is] the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith: (Romans 3:25-27)

we by nature Jews, and not sinners of the nations, having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' And if, seeking to be declared righteous in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, [is] then Christ a ministrant of sin? let it not be! (Galatians 2:15-17)

for if the things I threw down, these again I build up, a transgressor I set myself forth; for I through law, did die, that to God I may live; with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me; I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness [be] through law -- then Christ died in vain. (Galatians 2:18-21)

the law, then, [is] against the promises of God? -- let it not be! for if a law was given that was able to make alive, truly by law there would have been the righteousness, but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, (Galatians 3:21-23)

whom I did send unto you for this very thing, that ye might know the things concerning us, and that he might comfort your hearts. Peace to the brethren, and love, with faith, from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ! The grace with all those loving our Lord Jesus Christ -- undecayingly! Amen. (Ephesians 6:22-24)

yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, (Philippians 3:8-10)

And thou -- be remaining in the things which thou didst learn and wast entrusted with, having known from whom thou didst learn, and because from a babe the Holy Writings thou hast known, which are able to make thee wise -- to salvation, through faith that [is] in Christ Jesus; every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:14-16)

for which cause also these things I suffer, but I am not ashamed, for I have known in whom I have believed, and have been persuaded that he is able that which I have committed to him to guard -- to that day.
The pattern hold thou of sound words, which from me thou didst hear, in faith and love that [is] in Christ Jesus; the good thing committed guard thou through the Holy Spirit that is dwelling in us; (2 Timothy 1:12-14)

John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. (Revelation 1:4-6)

and Peter having remembered saith to him, `Rabbi, lo, the fig-tree that thou didst curse is dried up.' And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God; for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say. (Mark 11:21-23)

and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.' And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!' (Revelation 14:11-13)
Nothing in there about God having to believe you exist. Nothing in there showing that Hebrews 1 definition of faith is not applicable.

So exegete one of those passages to show me that God cannot know I exist unless he has faith that I exist.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Of course

A corporate body

Are you suggesting God could not know a corporate body would be united to Christ through faith

sorry but you just don't know what you are speaking about

This is not a view I invented but a well established view
All the members of the body of Christ were chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 as also their indiviual names were written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8

8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I gave a definition from Hebrews for faith.

You claim God has to believe you exist.

How did I misrepresent you?

You said: "According to you God hopes you exist". But I didn't say that at all did I strawmanner. Because according to me if God doesn't believe you exist in His reality, then you don't get to. Belief originated in and with God and not in and with us. Faith is the truth the believer believes in and about the reality of God. So, if you have a verse contradicting this, then post it.

So which books of the Bible do you accept as scripture and which ones stand in the way of your teachings?

Show scripture not conjecture.
Many cults make claims like you are doing now. All your claims without a solid Biblical foundation remain nothing more than cultist.

I see lots of cultic nonsense in these forums, especially those who pretend that they are believers and disbelieve that Christ had faith and disbelieve that belief come from God.

So which scriptures are your reality?

I believe that all scripture believed inspires the Spirit to show us the reality of God.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No Tom, your avoidance of the question is like a big Zit on a teenage face.

Why did God Elect Israel?
Were their sacrifices in vain? What about the other nations who never sacrificed?
There was nothing to avoid

God election to service is a separate issue from animal sacrifices

Isaiah 45:4 (KJV)
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

aside from which had they been unconditionally elect we would not read of their being cutoff in romans 9-11 would we ?

better go take care of that zit
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Nothing in there about God having to believe you exist. Nothing in there showing that Hebrews 1 definition of faith is not applicable.

That's because you don't understand what you're reading. Faith is just the belief one has in the truth and reality of God.

So exegete one of those passages to show me that God cannot know I exist unless he has faith that I exist.

Here are 245 verses about the importance of belief, and what happens to you when you don't do or believe what God tells you to do. Also, explain how someone knows or can be the truth and reality without believing it? God doesn't tell us to believe because He disbelieves, He tells us to believe because He believes. Also, if you think God doesn't believe, then you must think God disbelieves. And your god must be the god of unbelief. And we all know who the God of unbelief is right.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
All the members of the body of Christ were chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 as also their indiviual names were written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8

8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
So where does it say they were chosen unconditionally ?
 
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