Does a saved person break the word of wisdom?

Bonnie

Super Member
I worked at the church offices for a few years after my mission. If you were seen drinking a Coke on, or even off the job, you could get fired. It was not just a suggestion.

And everyone pretty much knew the church had stock in Coke, too.
Really? Stock in Coca Cola? Wow...gotta make money, I guess...

Didn't BYoung own a distillery, and sell alcoholic libations to non-Mormons? I seem to remember reading that.
 

Markk

Active member
I worked at the church offices for a few years after my mission. If you were seen drinking a Coke on, or even off the job, you could get fired. It was not just a suggestion.

And everyone pretty much knew the church had stock in Coke, too.
It really cracks me up when younger TBM today, try to down play caffeine, as if it was not a commandment. It was every bit as taboo as Coffee is today, probably more so.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Or, you can simply state what the JS and church teaches about Paradise, spirit prison, salvation, exaltation, and “ignorance.”
I'm not sure what you think that has to do with "knows better".
Instead of just throwing out your theory blindly.
What theory do you think I threw out blindly? There's nothing blind about the fact that the Word of Wisdom isn't a commandment.
These are all basic doctrines and found in the standard works BoJ,
Which you apparently don't understand. I pointed out your error and now your just using conflagration to distort the issue.
Also in regards to your OP, which is lacking a LDS understanding
Your response to my post is making in LDS understanding. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
of the different salvations
Which has nothing to do with my OP.

Look. There are only two salvation in our theology, really only one since one of them everyone gets regardless. And, since everyone gets it, it really isn't worth discussing. And then there is the one that we have to work for. That is the one I was referring to in my OP. It seems to me that your just nitpicking.
your example I assume it means exaltation in that you qualified it getting a TR.
I don't believe I indicated any qualifications. You do not need a TR to get into heaven. The TR is needed only to get into a Temple. Hence, the name, Temple Recommend.
willfully sinned,
This is a new term. I have to wonder what it means. Does that have something to do with "knows better"? I have to wonder who died and left you in charge of that department.
Your theory is that any member can do what they like
No. That's not my theory at all. Let's see if you can restate it correctly. I'll give you a hint, people cannot do whatever they like. That's your doctrine or the doctrine of our critics - faith alone which does not exist.
Listen to this short basic salvation 101 video from LDS . Org. It teaches the two salvations, and at about minute 2:35 or so
Which, again, has nothing to do with my post. You still haven't defined "knows better". How do you know they knew better?
This is what BY taught
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

As I suspected, I don't see why you think that quote makes any difference to what I said in my OP.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I can certainly read, and I know that the church teaches all revelations are commandments…see
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
D&C 88:43,44
And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life. For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God
Nothing in there says that all revelations are commandments. It's just your opinion. Read it very carefully. Not one word in there defines revelations as commandments. There is a commandment in there, but nothing that states that revelations are commandments. The commandment is to give head to the words of eternal life (I have to wonder if you think that every time Brigham Young broke wind, was that the words of eternal life).

I also don't see anything threatening condemnation if we don't live by every word. If we were condemned for that, no one would dwell in heaven but Jesus.
And I read the whole revelation, that God said you had better follow them or else…
No he didn't.
You are digging yourself into a whole again BoJ.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Because you said so? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
And LOL…God, in the revelation qualifies whether they are a commandment or not by stating…
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
No, He doesn't. That's just your interpretation which has no bearing on me or the church whatsoever.
LOL….To be honest with you BoJ, and this is just my opinion.
I know. That's why it's irrelevant. Factually, nothing you've said so far is true, except that Emma complained.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I worked at the church offices for a few years after my mission. If you were seen drinking a Coke on, or even off the job, you could get fired. It was not just a suggestion.
That's the church offices, not the church. Has anyone been excommunicated for drinking Coke at church or even outside of church? No? I didn't think so. Please don't get confused about the difference between work and work ethics and church.
 

Markk

Active member
Nothing in there says that all revelations are commandments. It's just your opinion. Read it very carefully. Not one word in there defines revelations as commandments. There is a commandment in there, but nothing that states that revelations are commandments. The commandment is to give head to the words of eternal life (I have to wonder if you think that every time Brigham Young broke wind, was that the words of eternal life).
“All saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

“And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.


“And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them” (D&C 89:18–21).

This is what the WoW reads BoJ. There is no wiggle room getting out of what happens to those that don’t follow the word of wisdom and other commandments.

I also don't see anything threatening condemnation if we don't live by every word. If we were condemned for that, no one would dwell in heaven but Jesus.

Well, you might want to read the “promise” the LDS God gave through JS in verse 21


“And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them” (D&C 89:18–21).


Not even Jesus BoJ, He drank wine and made it for folks.


I didn’t write this stuff BoJ, JS did. You can continue to pick and choose what you want in your testimony, but it does not change what the revelation says.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
This is what the WoW reads BoJ.
And, so?

What mystical truth do you think you have there?
Well, you might want to read the “promise” the LDS God gave through JS in verse 21
I read it. There's nothing mystical hidden truth there either. You're just breaking wind.
“And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them” (D&C 89:18–21).
And?
Not even Jesus BoJ, He drank wine and made it for folks.
And?
I didn’t write this stuff BoJ, JS did.
I don't know what you think you've uncovered there, but there's no mystery to me. Nothing condemning in any of it.
You can continue to pick and choose what you want in your testimony, but it does not change what the revelation says.
You know. I don't get what you think the revelation says. It seems to me that you're taking the line, "the destroying angel shall pass" into "the destroying angel will destroy you.

It should be pretty easy to see that the destroying angel didn't pass a lot of people who are addicted to the substances such as tobacco and alcohol and coffee. There's no mention of 100% certainty as you seem to be indicating that it is. If people died when they smoked, people would stop smoking pretty quickly. The idea isn't certain death or certain survival, it is enslavement and the deterioration of health and mental capacity.

The only example we have of a destroying angel in the scriptures took lives and since we know that spirits are eternal they can't be destroyed, then those who lost their lives are not dead but waiting for their day in the resurrection. I don't think the destroying angel will have any effect on the dead or the resurrected. So, I don't see the point of your consternation. It seems to me that it is you who are trying to change the revelation.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
That's the church offices, not the church. Has anyone been excommunicated for drinking Coke at church or even outside of church? No? I didn't think so. Please don't get confused about the difference between work and work ethics and church.
Do you think you can get away with anything unless you’re excommunicated? You seem to try to stay right on the edge of the letter of the law, from everything you say here. You’re going to test the word of wisdom right up until you’re on the verge of excommunication to see how far you can go. And you’re using the excuse, “well, it wasn’t really a commandment.” Is that how seriously you take your marriage vows, or tithing, or the sabbath, temple covenants, or any other of the Mormon requirements for exaltation? Take them apart and figure out how much you can get away with.

Christ requires your whole heart.
 

Markk

Active member
You know. I don't get what you think the revelation says. It seems to me that you're taking the line, "the destroying angel shall pass" into "the destroying angel will destroy you.

It should be pretty easy to see that the destroying angel didn't pass a lot of people who are addicted to the substances such as tobacco and alcohol and coffee. There's no mention of 100% certainty as you seem to be indicating that it is. If people died when they smoked, people would stop smoking pretty quickly. The idea isn't certain death or certain survival, it is enslavement and the deterioration of health and mental capacity.

The only example we have of a destroying angel in the scriptures took lives and since we know that spirits are eternal they can't be destroyed, then those who lost their lives are not dead but waiting for their day in the resurrection. I don't think the destroying angel will have any effect on the dead or the resurrected. So, I don't see the point of your consternation. It seems to me that it is you who are trying to change the revelation.
The revelation says:
“All saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

“And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

“And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them” (D&C 89:18–21).
Yes, no one has been destroyed as the verses says…just like you won’t become a God and begat spirit children with one of your many virgins. But, the LDS scripture reads that is possible, jut like it reads “ And I the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them” (D&C 89:18–21).

In one breath you quote D&C 89 as if it is God’s word, then mock it when the message disagrees with your testimony.

Please tell me what you interpretation is of verses 18-21?
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
It appears to me BOJ is just an "intellectual" Mormon, with his faith more on head knowledge that seems to vary with the wind. What he actually believes, if anything, is unclear with more twists and turns in scripture than an Alpine bike race. He is more into argumentation than anything else, even with his fellow Mormon Aaron32. Our friend Aaron at least tries to give honest answers and perspectives. BOJ....well make your own decision based upon his posts.
 

Markk

Active member
I don't know what you think you've uncovered there, but there's no mystery to me. Nothing condemning in any of it.
I haven’t uncovered anything, it is in the WoW revelation. It is a suggestion, or as the LDS God commands, a ‘saying’…a saying and a commandment with a promise that if the WoW are not followed, an angel of death will… “ not slay them.”

Again, this is what it reads. I understand you disagree with what the LDS revelation commands , and the promise revealed. I really do. But ignoring it wont make it go away.

And to be clear…LDS .org, your church… teaches this about the Words of Wisdom…Note….this is in a current teaching pamphlet.


The Word of Wisdom

Because our physical condition affects us spiritually, our Heavenly Father gives us commandments designed to improve our physical and spiritual health. As part of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, God revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith how we can care for our bodies so the Spirit of the Lord may be with us. This revelation is known as the Word of Wisdom. Obedience to this commandment is a requirement for baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Great blessings are promised to those who show their faith by obeying this commandment. ….


BoJ, you have been deceived. Open this link, and the hit “words of wisdom” and them tell me what comes up

 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Do you think you can get away with anything unless you’re excommunicated?
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Perfection is not required to obtain salvation. Even you believe that. If perfection were required, then no one would be saved but Jesus. The point of the argument isn't about how much one can get away with. That's a Jewish practice that got them in a lot of trouble and it is the trap that faith-alone sets for those who believe it.

The issue is the course that one is on. If they are on the covenant path, they will be saved. Is Word of Wisdom necessary to prove one is on the covenant path? No. It's not even a commandment. No one is going to get excommunicated over something that isn't even a commandment. And, just because you think it's a sin, doesn't make it a sin.

The word of wisdom is a standard set in order to obtain a temple recommend. it has nothing to do with salvation. It is wisdom which does set people who practice it apart from those who don't. The benefits are immediate and obvious, but this word comes with additional promises and zero threats.
You seem to try to stay right on the edge of the letter of the law, from everything you say here.
Irrelevant. The Word of Wisdom isn't in the "law" anywhere. Your opinion about the edge of the law is pointless.
You’re going to test the word of wisdom right up until you’re on the verge of excommunication to see how far you can go.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Now if that isn't a judgmental Mormon statement then I don't know what one is. I'm thinking this has no point of argument, it's just tripe to make you feel superior.
And you’re using the excuse, “well, it wasn’t really a commandment.”
It's not an excuse. It's a fact.
Is that how seriously you take your marriage vows, or tithing, or the sabbath, temple covenants, or any other of the Mormon requirements for exaltation? Take them apart and figure out how much you can get away with.
All pointless prattle.
Christ requires your whole heart.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Not according to the theology you all push. All Christ requires is faith without works.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yes, no one has been destroyed as the verses says…just like you won’t become a God and begat spirit children with one of your many virgins.
It doesn't say that either. :rolleyes: What good are scriptures if you're going to make up your own along the way?
In one breath you quote D&C 89 as if it is God’s word
I didn't quote it. I quoted you quoting it because apparently, you didn't read what you quoted.
then mock it when the message disagrees with your testimony.
The message agrees with my testimony.
Please tell me what you interpretation is of verses 18-21?
What's to interpret. Just read them as they are written and stop inserting words that make it fit your animus.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Perfection is not required to obtain salvation. Even you believe that. If perfection were required, then no one would be saved but Jesus. The point of the argument isn't about how much one can get away with. That's a Jewish practice that got them in a lot of trouble and it is the trap that faith-alone sets for those who believe it.

The issue is the course that one is on. If they are on the covenant path, they will be saved. Is Word of Wisdom necessary to prove one is on the covenant path? No. It's not even a commandment. No one is going to get excommunicated over something that isn't even a commandment. And, just because you think it's a sin, doesn't make it a sin.

The word of wisdom is a standard set in order to obtain a temple recommend. it has nothing to do with salvation. It is wisdom which does set people who practice it apart from those who don't. The benefits are immediate and obvious, but this word comes with additional promises and zero threats.

Irrelevant. The Word of Wisdom isn't in the "law" anywhere. Your opinion about the edge of the law is pointless.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Now if that isn't a judgmental Mormon statement then I don't know what one is. I'm thinking this has no point of argument, it's just tripe to make you feel superior.

It's not an excuse. It's a fact.

All pointless prattle.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Not according to the theology you all push. All Christ requires is faith without works.
Are you starting your own offshoot of mormonism? Trying to recruit other mormons?
 

Markk

Active member

The issue is the course that one is on. If they are on the covenant path, they will be saved. Is Word of Wisdom necessary to prove one is on the covenant path? No. It's not even a commandment. No one is going to get excommunicated over something that isn't even a commandment. And, just because you think it's a sin, doesn't make it a sin.

The word of wisdom is a standard set in order to obtain a temple recommend. it has nothing to do with salvation. It is wisdom which does set people who practice it apart from those who don't. The benefits are immediate and obvious, but this word comes with additional promises and zero threats.


/the-word-of-wisdom/the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng​

The Word of Wisdom​

Because our physical condition affects us spiritually, our Heavenly Father gives us commandments designed to improve our physical and spiritual health. As part of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, God revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith how we can care for our bodies so the Spirit of the Lord may be with us. This revelation is known as the Word of Wisdom. Obedience to this commandment is a requirement for baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Great blessings are promised to those who show their faith by obeying this commandment.


Irrelevant. The Word of Wisdom isn't in the "law" anywhere. Your opinion about the edge of the law is pointless.

Again, showing you do not understand basic LDS thought. All truths are eternal, and any truth is a eternal law according to LDS theology. The WoW is a commandment as shown above, which comes with a promise of not being destroyed if you follow them (verse 21 which you refuse to address).

Man may be saved by obedience to eternal laws, principles, and ordinances of the Mormon gospel. The WoW is a reveled commandment and also principle and law. one can not even be baptized if they do not follow the revelation BoJ, according to current teachings.

Here are a few atickles that might help you understand the basic principles of what eternal law is and the demands on the LDS faith.







Again you have been removed from your talking point, and are now just deflecting.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I haven’t uncovered anything, it is in the WoW revelation.
No. I believe that is in your interpretation.
or as the LDS God commands, a ‘saying’…a saying and a commandment with a promise that if the WoW are not followed, an angel of death will… “ not slay them.”
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
He specifically states that it isn't a commandment.

The Word of Wisdom

Because our physical condition affects us spiritually, our Heavenly Father gives us commandments designed to improve our physical and spiritual health. As part of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, God revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith how we can care for our bodies so the Spirit of the Lord may be with us. This revelation is known as the Word of Wisdom. Obedience to this commandment is a requirement for baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Great blessings are promised to those who show their faith by obeying this commandment. ….
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is typical of Utah Mormons (or Utah ex-Mormons) to climb all over themselves over statements like this. Clearly, the scripture indicates that it is NOT a commandment. It is a qualification for temporal purposes. I don't believe the church is going to present it in any other way. By phrasing it as a commandment, it becomes binding on the membership of the church, but it is not a commandment that will destroy one's salvation or get anyone kicked out of the church if they don't follow it. If you murder someone, molest or abuse children, commit adultery, and others depending on the magnitude. I have a friend who has same-sex relations in an excessive amount and now, 20 years later, he's still not allowed to hold the priesthood, though his membership has been restored. He is on the covenant path and I believe his salvation, because he doing all he can do and he is reconciled to God, is secure. If his salvation is secure, then I don't see why someone who vapes wouldn't be on the very same basis.

You have your ideas about what we believe and I disagree with them. You can hound me to the end of your life and it won't make any difference. It is sad that anyone should find themself in such circumstances when it was in their control to avoid it but because of pride or ignorance, didn't follow it when they knew better and are now trapped by the consequences of their decisions. Their progress on the covenant would have been so much greater had they kept the commandments, even the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. That path is strewn with broken people, badly broken, refugees from a war against sin, so long as they are on that path, their salvation is secure. That's the promise of 2 Nephi 25:23.
BoJ, you have been deceived.
No, Markk, you have been deceived.
 
Top