Does a saved person break the word of wisdom?

Markk

Active member
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is typical of Utah Mormons (or Utah ex-Mormons) to climb all over themselves over statements like this. Clearly, the scripture indicates that it is NOT a commandment. It is a qualification for temporal purposes. I don't believe the church is going to present it in any other way. By phrasing it as a commandment, it becomes binding on the membership of the church, but it is not a commandment that will destroy one's salvation or get anyone kicked out of the church if they don't follow it
LOL, the church states they believe it is a commandment and then doubles down in stating one can not even be baptized a member unless they follow it as a commandment.

Do you have a problem with Utah Mormons? I assume you are a Mormon convert from the South by your written manner…which makes sense to a certain degree of your ignorance of LDS doctrine and thought, and past comments about African Americans.

The scripture is contradictory or unclear unless read in context…in that it first reads that the revelation is not by commandment, then goes on to give a promise by God that those that do not follow it might lose their lives. It teaches it is a principle, which Baptism and confirmation etc are.

You just want to focus on a few words that pet your testimony, and compliment your posts, and ignore the larger context of the text and even larger context of what Utah Mormons (the GA) teach it means.

Can a person become a member if they do not follow the WoW? If they lie does God honor that?

Are the WoW a eternal truth according to LDS thought? Or was your God guessing when he gave the revelation to JS?
 

Markk

Active member
I have a friend who has same-sex relations in an excessive amount and now, 20 years later, he's still not allowed to hold the priesthood, though his membership has been restored. He is on the covenant path and I believe his salvation, because he doing all he can do and he is reconciled to God, is secure. If his salvation is secure, then I don't see why someone who vapes wouldn't be on the very same basis.
Not according to LDS theology. You can’t even define LDS salvation from my experience with you…he would be judged according to LDS thought, and either make the telesetial or terrestrial. True salvation or eternal life is out of the question in a LDS context.

No ones salvation is secure in LDS theology unless they have had the second anointing made sure…I am pretty sure your friend has not had that…correct me if I am wrong?
 

Markk

Active member
You have your ideas about what we believe and I disagree with them. You can hound me to the end of your life and it won't make any difference. It is sad that anyone should find themself in such circumstances when it was in their control to avoid it but because of pride or ignorance, didn't follow it when they knew better and are now trapped by the consequences of their decisions. Their progress on the covenant would have been so much greater had they kept the commandments, even the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. That path is strewn with broken people, badly broken, refugees from a war against sin, so long as they are on that path, their salvation is secure. That's the promise of 2 Nephi 25:23.
CFR in a LDS context. What salvation, define what salvation you are talking about and offer a CF. You are just making stuff up BoJ.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
No. I believe that is in your interpretation.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
He specifically states that it isn't a commandment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is typical of Utah Mormons (or Utah ex-Mormons) to climb all over themselves over statements like this. Clearly, the scripture indicates that it is NOT a commandment. It is a qualification for temporal purposes. I don't believe the church is going to present it in any other way. By phrasing it as a commandment, it becomes binding on the membership of the church, but it is not a commandment that will destroy one's salvation or get anyone kicked out of the church if they don't follow it. If you murder someone, molest or abuse children, commit adultery, and others depending on the magnitude. I have a friend who has same-sex relations in an excessive amount and now, 20 years later, he's still not allowed to hold the priesthood, though his membership has been restored. He is on the covenant path and I believe his salvation, because he doing all he can do and he is reconciled to God, is secure. If his salvation is secure, then I don't see why someone who vapes wouldn't be on the very same basis.

You have your ideas about what we believe and I disagree with them. You can hound me to the end of your life and it won't make any difference. It is sad that anyone should find themself in such circumstances when it was in their control to avoid it but because of pride or ignorance, didn't follow it when they knew better and are now trapped by the consequences of their decisions. Their progress on the covenant would have been so much greater had they kept the commandments, even the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. That path is strewn with broken people, badly broken, refugees from a war against sin, so long as they are on that path, their salvation is secure. That's the promise of 2 Nephi 25:23.

No, Markk, you have been deceived.
What do you mean “on the covenant path.” That’s not a phrase that’s been used in mormonism.

And what do you mean “reconciled with God?”

The way you write about it sounds a lot like your idea of Christian faith without works. It doesn’t matter what you do if you’re “reconciled,” oh, and married of course.
 

Markk

Active member
What do you mean “on the covenant path.” That’s not a phrase that’s been used in mormonism.

And what do you mean “reconciled with God?”

The way you write about it sounds a lot like your idea of Christian faith without works. It doesn’t matter what you do if you’re “reconciled,” oh, and married of course.
It’s a newer term. It is basically the plan of salvation along with the AoF…with a new name. But it is watered down and does not go into any detail.

Basically get baptized, confirmed by the HG, the PH, up to temple marriage and eternal life. There are teachings on it, but it is just another talking point that one can’t get a straight answer on.

Have BoJ explain it to you with any detail…good luck.
 

The Prophet

Active member
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Your opinion is irrelevant, that's not what D&C 89:21 states. ;)
here's what D&C 89 does state :)

Doctrine and Covenants 89

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
the church states they believe it is a commandment and then doubles down in stating one can not even be baptized a member unless they follow it as a commandment.
Doubling down would be condemning people to hell for breaking the Word of Wisdom. No one in our church except maybe Utah members have done that.
Do you have a problem with Utah Mormons?
Not really. I'm just pointing out the mindset of Utah members is a little too literal. They tend to judge people by standards that don't exist. Kind of like the standard ex-Mormons judge us by.
I assume you are a Mormon convert from the South by your written manner…which makes sense to a certain degree of your ignorance of LDS doctrine and thought, and past comments about African Americans.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Well, you know what they say about the word, assume, right?
The scripture is contradictory or unclear unless read in context…
:rolleyes:
I think you mean read in the context you create, but let's see. As I thought, a big nothing burger.
Can a person become a member if they do not follow the WoW?
Yes. I just said they can.
If they lie does God honor that?
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
What's the Utah Mormon answer? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
I'm sure you know already. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Are the WoW a eternal truth according to LDS thought?
Are you now the thought police? What is "LDS thought"? I'm thinking that whatever you're thinking isn't LDS thought. What are your thoughts on that? :rolleyes:
Or was your God guessing when he gave the revelation to JS?
I can't tell from your big nothing burger what you think God was thinking. Now, I'm not even sure you know what you are thinking.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Not according to LDS theology.
No. You mean, no according to your rendition of LDS theology, which I have consistently pointed out isn't LDS theology. ;)
You can’t even define LDS salvation from my experience with you…
Sure I can. It's living with God in His kingdom forever.
he would be judged according to LDS thought,
Well, obviously, you are the one judging here, not LDS thought.
and either make the telesetial or terrestrial. True salvation or eternal life is out of the question in a LDS context.
I disagree. If that were true, no one would be saved except Jesus. I'm pretty sure we don't teach that.
No ones salvation is secure in LDS theology unless they have had the second anointing made sure…
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
I'm so glad you're not in charge of LDS thought.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
CFR in a LDS context.
2 Nephi 25:23 ;)
What salvation, define what salvation you are talking about and offer a CF.
I believe the above verse covers the salvation I'm talking about. As I said, based on what u think we teach no one is saved but Jesus. If we aren't saved by grace then what good is grace?

U seem to interpret, all we can do as everything we must do which eliminates the need for grace. But that isn't what we believe or teach.

I understand that ur version of Mormonism is impossible. Fortunately, ur version doesn't exist.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
What do you mean “on the covenant path.” That’s not a phrase that’s been used in mormonism.

And what do you mean “reconciled with God?”
These two are the same thing. Look up the word reconcile and u will know what I mean.
The way you write about it sounds a lot like your idea of Christian faith without works
🤣🤣🤣
It is if u concider that works are and important and necessary part of faith but u all and Aaron32 refuse to commit to that. Further, I believe that reconciliation is according to the capacity of the individual so that the amount of work that is required is within his capacity. This the person who quit smoking but still vapes and continues to strive for perfection is on the covenant path. The key is how does one live their life? It is not about the nitpicking details or someone's opinion about what others do.

So, if a person commits to the word of wisdom but doesn't keep it isn't condemnatory so long as the person is striving to keep it within his capacity. If my friend went to see the Bishop for a temple recommend and answered the word of wisdom question correctly based on his understanding then he is in that covenant path. I personally don't think he will get a temple recommend because I don't think he believes that he keeps the word of wisdom. But he does believe he is reconciled to God. Grace will cover the rest. And since grace covers the distance between where we are and perfection then he is covered by it.

Someone might want to take this further and say that if a person believes he's reconciled to God after murdering someone, I'm pretty sure common sense would make a distinction in this case. If u can't restore what has been lost, then it seems that someone would need to judge ur reconciliation. The things u can make restitution for are within ur own capacity to determine.
 

Markk

Active member
2 Nephi 25:23 ;)

I believe the above verse covers the salvation I'm talking about. As I said, based on what u think we teach no one is saved but Jesus. If we aren't saved by grace then what good is grace?

U seem to interpret, all we can do as everything we must do which eliminates the need for grace. But that isn't what we believe or teach.

I understand that ur version of Mormonism is impossible. Fortunately, ur version doesn't exist.
Deflection, once again. It completely ignores the LDS plan of salvation, internal progression, general salvation vs personal salvation. It specifically excludes the article of faith that read mankind ”may” be saved, by obedience to a set of laws and ordinances.

The verse you quoted is a verse that speaks of nephits believing in Christ 500 years before he was even born here on earth. ( a topic for another day)

You are continuing to show your lack of understanding of what the LDS church even teaches and again ignore th most basic doctrine of the LDS church, with is the Plan of Salvation or as you put it your “covenant path.”

The positive out of this you, as Aaron has, have checked out of the church doctrinally, you are admitting progressing to a God is impossible, that is good BoJ. The bummer is it has you tied up like a pretzel having to ignore so much…but your post certainly show your defiance to core LDS thought, and a yearning for Grace.

I‘ll leave you this…


“This mortal life is granted us that we may be schooled properly and trained through the plan of salvation to be worthy to become in very deed sons and daughters of God. Our Eternal Father would have every soul saved if that were feasible. Salvation, however, is based on merit and obedience to divine law and therefore is only obtained through compliance with divine commandments.” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols., 5:, p.82 (improvement era.)


Like the title reads, for you this is a the very “inconvenient truth,” you are denying.
 

Markk

Active member
I disagree. If that were true, no one would be saved except Jesus. I'm pretty sure we don't teach that.
This deserves a new thread for sure. I‘ll start one later. You do understand that the church is adamant that very few of HF’s children will be with him in the CK ?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Deflection, once again.
No. That was your reference. I know you don't like it, but it's there and it refutes your position. That's why I cited it to begin with.
It completely ignores the LDS plan of salvation
That is the LDS plan of salvation. It completely ignores your bad interpretation of what we believe and teach.
internal progression
I don't know what that is.
general salvation vs personal salvation.
If your "general salvation" means the resurrection, that has nothing to do with anything I said or 2 Nephi 25:23. As far as personal Salvation, well, I have to assume you mean living with God in the His Kingdom forever and that is what I'm talking about.
It specifically excludes the article of faith that read mankind ”may” be saved, by obedience to a set of laws and ordinances.
No. It specifically includes the Article of Faith. It specifically excludes your interpretation.
The verse you quoted is a verse that speaks of nephits believing in Christ 500 years before he was even born here on earth. ( a topic for another day)
Now that's a deflection.
“This mortal life is granted us that we may be schooled properly and trained through the plan of salvation to be worthy to become in very deed sons and daughters of God. Our Eternal Father would have every soul saved if that were feasible. Salvation, however, is based on merit and obedience to divine law and therefore is only obtained through compliance with divine commandments.” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols., 5:, p.82 (improvement era.)
No problems there. I'm not sure what your issue is.
Like the title reads, for you this is a the very “inconvenient truth,” you are denying.
The point of my argument is that you don't know what the church's truth is.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
These two are the same thing. Look up the word reconcile and u will know what I mean.

🤣🤣🤣
It is if u concider that works are and important and necessary part of faith but u all and Aaron32 refuse to commit to that. Further, I believe that reconciliation is according to the capacity of the individual so that the amount of work that is required is within his capacity. This the person who quit smoking but still vapes and continues to strive for perfection is on the covenant path. The key is how does one live their life? It is not about the nitpicking details or someone's opinion about what others do.

So, if a person commits to the word of wisdom but doesn't keep it isn't condemnatory so long as the person is striving to keep it within his capacity. If my friend went to see the Bishop for a temple recommend and answered the word of wisdom question correctly based on his understanding then he is in that covenant path. I personally don't think he will get a temple recommend because I don't think he believes that he keeps the word of wisdom. But he does believe he is reconciled to God. Grace will cover the rest. And since grace covers the distance between where we are and perfection then he is covered by it.

Someone might want to take this further and say that if a person believes he's reconciled to God after murdering someone, I'm pretty sure common sense would make a distinction in this case. If u can't restore what has been lost, then it seems that someone would need to judge ur reconciliation. The things u can make restitution for are within ur own capacity to determine.
That brings up an interesting point. In the mormon culture, mormons often convince themselves they’re on the right path simply for being Mormon. And that sins and mistakes they make arent that serious because they’re the “chosen people.” As long as you don’t kill anyone or stay single, you’re on a direct route to the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

So you can feel ok about telling the bishop you pay a full tithing, even if you don’t. Or that you keep the word of wisdom even though you’re vaping your guts out. Or that you weren't being Immoral right up until the day you left on your mission. It’s all ok, because you’re “reconciled,” you’re Mormon, you’re special. You’ll get away with it.

In this life, anyway. But somehow I don’t think that’s God’s idea of recilliation.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
here's what D&C 89 does state :)

Doctrine and Covenants 89

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
I wonder how many Mormons restrict their meat eating to the wintertime.....
 
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