Does a Sinner Need a Bible to be Saved from the Penalty of Sin

JDS

Well-known member
Which is the second death in the lake of fire?

The answer is, NO. What the sinner must have is a faithful preacher who has been saved and believes the word of the Lord and who will tell him the good news. The first gentile to be saved in the NT was Cornelius, the Italian, who was converted in AD 40, some ten years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. When he was seeking God for salvation, God sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter to preach to him. He did not send him to get a written copy of the Bible. Peter was a believer in the word of the Lord and he came and preached Jesus Christ to this man, and his household, and they believed and were saved.

The Ethiopian in Acts 8 had a bible, the OT Isaiah, and was reading it, yet God had to send a preacher to get him saved from his sins because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them which believes, he says. Salvation is by faith. Faith in the savior, Jesus Christ, comes by hearing the word of God. Men must have a preacher to hear. Salvation does not come by sight. One may preach the gospel in his own words and persuade men to be saved because saved men have a personal testimony. They can speak with conviction and tell what change has been wrought in them and how it came about. Their confidence is in the person who saved them, the only one who can.

The scriptures have a four-fold purpose and they are preserved by God for the saved man and are profitable for him in three areas.

2 Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Sanctification is the meaning of the salvation we are to continue in and is the calling of the aved man.

.2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

A saved man must have an inspired bible with the words God has chosen if he is to understand the mysteries of the Christian faith and God's purpose in this age from the cross to the translation of the church of Jesus Christ, which he has formed in these last days. Just any words will not get it done.
 

imJRR

Active member
Quote: "A saved man must have an inspired bible with the words God has chosen if he is to understand the mysteries of the Christian faith and God's purpose in this age from the cross to the translation of the church of Jesus Christ, which he has formed in these last days. Just any words will not get it done."

If you are suggesting or even hinting - especially by the last sentence - that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV - I will submit that that idea is wrong and worse than wrong. If you are not saying or suggesting that, I will apologize for misunderstanding.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Quote: "A saved man must have an inspired bible with the words God has chosen if he is to understand the mysteries of the Christian faith and God's purpose in this age from the cross to the translation of the church of Jesus Christ, which he has formed in these last days. Just any words will not get it done."

If you are suggesting or even hinting - especially by the last sentence - that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV - I will submit that that idea is wrong and worse than wrong. If you are not saying or suggesting that, I will apologize for misunderstanding.
Well, there is no mystery about how to be saved. That is so simple a child can understand it. Jesus Christ said something to this effect; Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God. Neither do saved people always understand the mysteries of the faith just because they are saved because God revealed through Paul that carnal and sensual Christians are hindered from comprehending these great truths because of a lack of maturity in the faith. You may read about it here and see it is not my charge but it is what the following words say.

1 Corinthians 2:4-16
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
_______________________

The wisdom of God that has been hidden and is now being revealed is not salvation. Whatever this mystery wisdom is will bring us to be glorified. This mystery that is being revealed now is called in Ephesians, the mystery of Christ, which is the church of Jesus Christ, his body, that is being formed by all believers in Our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians was written six years after 1 Corinthians and is where Paul expounds this mystery to a mature church. Here is a plain statement of what the wisdom of God is. Believe the words.

Ephesians 3:9-10
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,



I urge you to read the context of these Ephesian verses.
____________________


1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
________________

Only a saved man could say the above.
________________

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
_______________

1) Spiritual man - saved
2) Natural man - unsaved
3) Carnal man - saved

These are the 3 kinds of men described by the text. Two are saved and one is not. Only one has the capability of grasping the deep things of God, the mystery he speaks of here. The saved man must choose whether he will mature in the faith or remain a babe.

There are other mysteries in the NT scriptures and Jesus Christ referred to this age as the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven in Matt 13 and explained it, beginning to end, in seven parables in that chapter.
______________

1 Corinthians 4:1-2
1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

I trust this post will answer your concerns. The mysteries are revealed by the words of scripture. You must believe the words. You must have the words of God. You do not need the words of God to be saved, you need a preacher who believes the word of God about salvation and he might preach the simple gospel in his own words and get sinners saved. But, one cannot understand the mysteries that way.
 

imJRR

Active member
My post to you was neither complicated nor complex, and a truly direct, and clear answer by you would not have taken a response as long as what the above is. Even a one sentence response as simple as, "Yes, I am saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV ", or "No, I am not saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV" would have been adequate clarification.
 

JDS

Well-known member
My post to you was neither complicated nor complex, and a truly direct, and clear answer by you would not have taken a response as long as what the above is. Even a one sentence response as simple as, "Yes, I am saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV ", or "No, I am not saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV" would have been adequate clarification.
I did not think a sentence that began with, Quote: "A saved man must have an inspired bible with the words God has chosen if he is to understand the mysteries of the Christian faith," is too complicated to be understood, but I was wrong, apparently.

Clarification was certainly needed.
 

imJRR

Active member
One more time: My post to you was neither complicated nor complex, and a truly direct, and clear answer by you would not have taken a response as long as what you wrote. Even a one sentence response as simple as, "Yes, I am saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV ", or "No, I am not saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV" would have been adequate clarification.

So, are you able to give one of those answers or not? To drag this out any further makes you the one who is complicating things. Pick which response indicates your position - It really is that simple.
 
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JDS

Well-known member
One more time: My post to you was neither complicated nor complex, and a truly direct, and clear answer by you would not have taken a response as long as what you wrote. Even a one sentence response as simple as, "Yes, I am saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV ", or "No, I am not saying that someone cannot be saved and/or grow in the Christian faith unless they are reading or hearing from the KJV" would have been adequate clarification.

So, are you able to give one of those answers or not? To drag this out any further makes you the one who is complicating things. Pick which response indicates your position - It really is that simple.
What is it that you do not understand about "a saved man?" This would be a man who is not unsaved. He would not be a natural man. It is he, the saved man, that must have an inspired bible to understand the mysteries of God.

My point is that a man does not need a bible to be saved, so it does not require a KJV for a man to be saved. How simple is that?
 

imJRR

Active member
What I understand - What anyone can understand - is that I asked you to clarify your position. Some time ago I sat across from a man who said, "I would seriously question the salvation of a person who says he/she came to saving faith in Christ using any version other than the KJV." From the above, you do not have that position. I was and am glad to read that.
 

Shoonra

Member
Do KJVOs believe that someone relying on a foreign language Bible cannot be saved? That only English language users -and of them, only those reading the KJV - can be saved?
 

JDS

Well-known member
Do KJVOs believe that someone relying on a foreign language Bible cannot be saved? That only English language users -and of them, only those reading the KJV - can be saved?
False. KJV Bible believers send out more missionaries than anyone else. They send them to countries and places where English is not known and they labor greatly to learn the language of the people so they can preach Jesus Christ in their language. None of them look first to translating a Bible into their langauge or teaching them English so they can here the words of the KJV Bible. Your charge makes no sense and you have not thought it through.

My KJV Only church is 150 members and we support 80 missionaries to other countries through faith promise giving. They are there to preach the gospel, not to write bibles.

Bibles don't save people. Preaching saves people.
 

Leatherneck0311

Active member
False. KJV Bible believers send out more missionaries than anyone else. They send them to countries and places where English is not known and they labor greatly to learn the language of the people so they can preach Jesus Christ in their language. None of them look first to translating a Bible into their langauge or teaching them English so they can here the words of the KJV Bible. Your charge makes no sense and you have not thought it through.

My KJV Only church is 150 members and we support 80 missionaries to other countries through faith promise giving. They are there to preach the gospel, not to write bibles.

Bibles don't save people. Preaching saves people.
JDS, it appears any accusation will do if you don’t follow the crowd. Peace.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Which is the second death in the lake of fire?

The answer is, NO. What the sinner must have is a faithful preacher who has been saved and believes the word of the Lord and who will tell him the good news. The first gentile to be saved in the NT was Cornelius, the Italian, who was converted in AD 40, some ten years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. When he was seeking God for salvation, God sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter to preach to him. He did not send him to get a written copy of the Bible. Peter was a believer in the word of the Lord and he came and preached Jesus Christ to this man, and his household, and they believed and were saved.

The Ethiopian in Acts 8 had a bible, the OT Isaiah, and was reading it, yet God had to send a preacher to get him saved from his sins because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them which believes, he says. Salvation is by faith. Faith in the savior, Jesus Christ, comes by hearing the word of God. Men must have a preacher to hear. Salvation does not come by sight. One may preach the gospel in his own words and persuade men to be saved because saved men have a personal testimony. They can speak with conviction and tell what change has been wrought in them and how it came about. Their confidence is in the person who saved them, the only one who can.

The scriptures have a four-fold purpose and they are preserved by God for the saved man and are profitable for him in three areas.

2 Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Sanctification is the meaning of the salvation we are to continue in and is the calling of the aved man.

.2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

A saved man must have an inspired bible with the words God has chosen if he is to understand the mysteries of the Christian faith and God's purpose in this age from the cross to the translation of the church of Jesus Christ, which he has formed in these last days. Just any words will not get it done.
Are you stating here that only the Kjv can be used by God to save lost sinners, so only really saved by that particular translation?
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
False. KJV Bible believers send out more missionaries than anyone else. They send them to countries and places where English is not known and they labor greatly to learn the language of the people so they can preach Jesus Christ in their language. None of them look first to translating a Bible into their langauge or teaching them English so they can here the words of the KJV Bible. Your charge makes no sense and you have not thought it through.

My KJV Only church is 150 members and we support 80 missionaries to other countries through faith promise giving. They are there to preach the gospel, not to write bibles.

Bibles don't save people. Preaching saves people.

You're talking out both sides of your mouth. In one breath, you want to demand that the Scriptures be referenced a specfic way with specfic words, and in the next breath you contradict yourself by saying that you all they need is preaching.....

Do you want preachers to quote a specfic verse with specfic words or not? You can't have both....

KJVOist have ignored for a very long time the practice of their "preacher"..... "expounding" the Scriptures instead of just quoting the Scriptures with specfic words. Often times, these same "preachers"...... Will use the very words that come from modern translation to "explain" what the archaic KJV details.

Why the hypocrisy?
 

Leatherneck0311

Active member
Are you stating here that only the Kjv can be used by God to save lost sinners, so only really saved by that particular translation?
Do you believe MV’s are not inspired ? You are the only one to mention the KJV. I read JDD’s response twice and saw no mention of the KJV. Do you believe any translation is inspired ?
 

imJRR

Active member
Praise_Yeshua wrote: "KJVOist have ignored for a very long time the practice of their "preacher"..... "expounding" the Scriptures instead of just quoting the Scriptures with specfic words. Often times, these same "preachers"...... Will use the very words that come from modern translation to "explain" what the archaic KJV details."

I can personally testify to the truth of the above. I've witnessed KJV preachers - after reading from the KJV - explaining a word, a verse or a passage from the KJV by using the wording from a modern translation.

It always reminded me of Arsenio Hall, and his show routine of "This is one of the things that make you say, 'Hmmmm'."
 

JDS

Well-known member
Are you stating here that only the Kjv can be used by God to save lost sinners, so only really saved by that particular translation?
I am saying that KJV Only believers are different from you in this respect. We believe the words of God. You don’t. I am not accusing you of not believing them, it is what you say. That is your testimony.
Men who have been saved will follow Jesus Christ. This means they will become a disciple. A disciple is a learner. Where can we find the information that we need given that the last written word that we are sure God inspired was “amen” in Revelation 22 in AD 94 by the apostle John. So, think about that a minute. The Christians before that amen had the apostles themselves to give them inspired instruction as the scriptures were being written and the Christians afterward had the exact same instruction from the exact same men because they wrote their words down and God preserved them.
This is fantastic to me. The church of Jesus Christ is said to be one new man and the word of God is said to be bread and no matter when the members of the body lived, they all ate the exact same bread. They had the exact same words by which to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. There is no schism in the body.
When you think about the wisdom of our Lord, it is overwhelming. He is to be praised and adored and believed. Your presentation of him falls way short, if you ask me. The KJV is the preserved word of God and I do not doubt it.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Praise_Yeshua wrote: "KJVOist have ignored for a very long time the practice of their "preacher"..... "expounding" the Scriptures instead of just quoting the Scriptures with specfic words. Often times, these same "preachers"...... Will use the very words that come from modern translation to "explain" what the archaic KJV details."

I can personally testify to the truth of the above. I've witnessed KJV preachers - after reading from the KJV - explaining a word, a verse or a passage from the KJV by using the wording from a modern translation.

It always reminded me of Arsenio Hall, and his show routine of "This is one of the things that make you say, 'Hmmmm'."
Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Do you understand what preaching is? It is expounding the truth of God. What ever the words or the method that Nehemiah used to show the sense of the scriptures, dead sure when he was finished he still had the inspired Bible intact and had not changed a single word of it.
Now, if your KJV preacher experience used a word that was in a verse from your uninspired copy in his exhortation, that is okay but I would be willing to bet my shirt that he was not using a word from the last 12 verses in Mark, Matt 18:11 or Acts 8:37.
I bet he walked out of the building with a pure Bible.
 

logos1560

Active member
We believe the words of God.
You fail to demonstrate that you believe the actual words of God given by inspiration to the prophets and apostles.

Your posts demonstrate that instead of believing the actual words given by inspiration of God you believe the inconsistent textual criticism decisions, inconsistent Bible revision decisions, and imperfect translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England critics in 1611.
According to the KJV translators themselves, the KJV has many words added by men since they acknowledging adding words for which they had no original-language words of Scripture although they inconsistently only put some of their added words in a different type. Later editors would put many more of their added words in italics. Do you claim that all those words added by men are words of God and thereby contradict clear scriptural teaching?

Would you claim to believe the errors in the 1611 edition of the KJV as being words of God? Would you claim to believe actual errors in later editions of the KJV as being words of God?
 

imJRR

Active member
Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Do you understand what preaching is? It is expounding the truth of God. What ever the words or the method that Nehemiah used to show the sense of the scriptures, dead sure when he was finished he still had the inspired Bible intact and had not changed a single word of it.
Now, if your KJV preacher experience used a word that was in a verse from your uninspired copy in his exhortation, that is okay but I would be willing to bet my shirt that he was not using a word from the last 12 verses in Mark, Matt 18:11 or Acts 8:37.
I bet he walked out of the building with a pure Bible.

I understand what preaching is very well. I also understand what that preacher was doing - "explaining" the KJV by using another version of the Bible. You can imagine that what the preacher was actually doing was the same as Nehemiah, but that really would not be accurate or true. What was actually going on was this - The KJV by itself was inadequate - What was read from it needed to be explained by using another version of the Bible in order for people to understand the reading.

That is not preaching; that is not expounding - That is using a Bible version that people can understand to explain a Bible version that they cannot.
 

JDS

Well-known member
I understand what preaching is very well. I also understand what that preacher was doing - "explaining" the KJV by using another version of the Bible. You can imagine that what the preacher was actually doing was the same as Nehemiah, but that really would not be accurate or true. What was actually going on was this - The KJV by itself was inadequate - What was read from it needed to be explained by using another version of the Bible in order for people to understand the reading.

That is not preaching; that is not expounding - That is using a Bible version that people can understand to explain a Bible version that they cannot.
What is the particular hindrance in your mind that keeps you from understanding the words in a KJV. You can answer for yourself. I am not asking you to explain why someone else cannot understand them. I am asking about you.
 
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