Does Calvinism Teach Soul Sleep

JDS

Well-known member
I post this question because of the comments of two hyper Calvinists on another thread. They were speaking of Lazarus in John 11 being raised from the dead. Their comments seem to indicate they do not take in to account the doctrine of the soul of a man, that it is always self aware.


First Calvinist:
When a person is dead, theres no life. Nothing can change that fact.
Second Calvinist:
"Yes the opposition is forced to change the meaning of dead to alive."



Does one need to ask the question, "when is the body of a man alive?" Another question. "Are all bodies with a soul in it like the body of Lazarus during the 4 days he spent in the tomb, or would you say all bodies are like Lazarus before he went into the tomb and after he came out?"

One more question, "Was the Spirit of God in Lazarus when he was called by Jesus out of the tomb in John 11?" If your answer is yes, then you will need to reconcile the following statement by John in chapter 7, which says.

37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

One more question. "Where does Calvinists think the soul of Lazarus was during the 4 days he was dead and his body was in the tomb and was he cognizant while he was there?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I post this question because of the comments of two hyper Calvinists on another thread. They were speaking of Lazarus in John 11 being raised from the dead. Their comments seem to indicate they do not take in to account the doctrine of the soul of a man, that it is always self aware.


First Calvinist:

Second Calvinist:
"Yes the opposition is forced to change the meaning of dead to alive."



Does one need to ask the question, "when is the body of a man alive?" Another question. "Are all bodies with a soul in it like the body of Lazarus during the 4 days he spent in the tomb, or would you say all bodies are like Lazarus before he went into the tomb and after he came out?"

One more question, "Was the Spirit of God in Lazarus when he was called by Jesus out of the tomb in John 11?" If your answer is yes, then you will need to reconcile the following statement by John in chapter 7, which says.

37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

One more question. "Where does Calvinists think the soul of Lazarus was during the 4 days he was dead and his body was in the tomb and was he cognizant while he was there?
Calvinists don't believe in Soul Sleep...
 

JDS

Well-known member
Calvinists don't believe in Soul Sleep...
What do they believe then?

Here is another quote from the op in the thread, "The free will of Lazarus and choice."

"Just as Lazarus who was dead physically and could not come out of the grave until Jesus gave him life, so we cannot come alive without the regeneration of our spirit by Christ."

I ask again, "Did Lazarus have the Spirit of God dwelling in his body when he came out of the tomb?" The above statement from a revered Calvinist on this forum suggests that is exactly what happened. If it were true then many NT scriptures would need to be reconciled to that theology and it would be impossible to do it.

Where was the soul of Lazarus and who was it that heard the command of Jesus to come forth? What exactly happened at the tomb of Lazarus? The very fact that Lazarus heard the voice of Jesus indicates that he was cognizant and that he was awake.

Is it possible that the resurrection of Lazarus, body and soul, was a typical figure for something else and was not a figure for the new birth of a Christian?
 

civic

Well-known member
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The phrase “absent from the body” is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves. To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.

In the same way, Christians are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the presence of God. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When a born-again believer dies, his soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord. There, the soul consciously awaits the resurrection of the body. To the church at Philippi Paul wrote from a Roman prison:

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24).

Paul’s desire in life was to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. If he lived, he could continue to labor for the Lord. If he faced execution, he would depart this life and be with Christ. He desired to be with his Savior, but if he remained on earth, he could continue to minister to others.got?

hope this helps !!!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What do they believe then?

Here is another quote from the op in the thread, "The free will of Lazarus and choice."

"Just as Lazarus who was dead physically and could not come out of the grave until Jesus gave him life, so we cannot come alive without the regeneration of our spirit by Christ."

I ask again, "Did Lazarus have the Spirit of God dwelling in his body when he came out of the tomb?" The above statement from a revered Calvinist on this forum suggests that is exactly what happened. If it were true then many NT scriptures would need to be reconciled to that theology and it would be impossible to do it.

Where was the soul of Lazarus and who was it that heard the command of Jesus to come forth? What exactly happened at the tomb of Lazarus? The very fact that Lazarus heard the voice of Jesus indicates that he was cognizant and that he was awake.

Is it possible that the resurrection of Lazarus, body and soul, was a typical figure for something else and was not a figure for the new birth of a Christian?
In Pradise, Lazarus had a Living Soul and and a Living Human Spirit, same as he had before he Died. While alive, he had a Living Body, Soul and Human Spirit, because he was Regenerated before his death; but he wasn't Indwelt by the Holy Ghost since the first Christian Pentecost hadn't arrived yet. Before Pentecost the Holy Ghost would come, Regenerate, then go like the Wind without Regeneration. The Rich Man only had a live Soul in Hades...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
In Pradise, Lazarus had a Living Soul and and a Living Human Spirit, same as he had before he Died. While alive, he had a Living Body, Soul and Human Spirit, because he was Regenerated before his death; but he wasn't Indwelt by the Holy Ghost since the first Christian Pentecost hadn't arrived yet. Before Pentecost the Holy Ghost would come, Regenerate, then go like the Wind without Regeneration. The Rich Man only had a live Soul in Hades...
Edited; I had to go do a 911 Call...

In Pradise, Lazarus had a Living Soul and and a Living Human Spirit, same as he had before he Died. While alive, he had a Living Body, Soul and Human Spirit, because he was Regenerated before his death; but he wasn't Indwelt by the Holy Ghost since the first Christian Pentecost hadn't arrived yet. Before Pentecost the Holy Ghost would come, Regenerate, then go like the Wind without Indwelling. The Rich Man only had a live Soul in Hades but Will have a live, immortal Body at the Resurrection of the Dead; and a dead Human spirit. He will then be poured into the Lake of Fire...
 
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JDS

Well-known member
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The phrase “absent from the body” is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves. To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.

In the same way, Christians are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the presence of God. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When a born-again believer dies, his soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord. There, the soul consciously awaits the resurrection of the body. To the church at Philippi Paul wrote from a Roman prison:

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24).

Paul’s desire in life was to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. If he lived, he could continue to labor for the Lord. If he faced execution, he would depart this life and be with Christ. He desired to be with his Savior, but if he remained on earth, he could continue to minister to others.got?

hope this helps !!!
Okay, you touched none of my questions, civic, but let me assume you are answering something by the verses you chose to quote about being absent from the body and being present with the Lord in 2 Cor 5:8. I am thinking that is what you want us to think about Lazarus, who, you said, was a type of being born again. The op that I quoted referenced Lazarus and his death in the tomb as being unable to know any thing. This is the reason I asked the question about soul sleep and Calvinists teachings.

But let's follow your logic in these comments of yours that if Lazarus was dead he would be present with the Lord since he had been a believer in Jesus. Well, we know the geographical area where the Lord was when Lazarus died. He was with his disciples somewhere within a two days journey of Bethany, where Lazarus and his sisters lived.

Do you believe and teach that Lazarus was present with the Lord Jesus and his disciples during those 4 days his body was in the tomb?

Here is another question for you. Do you think there is a possibility that you are missing some important truths that would reconcile the statements by Paul in his letters that you quoted and the obvious inconsistencies of suggesting that Lazarus was in the presence of Jesus while his body lay dead in the tomb?
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
What do they believe then?

Here is another quote from the op in the thread, "The free will of Lazarus and choice."

"Just as Lazarus who was dead physically and could not come out of the grave until Jesus gave him life, so we cannot come alive without the regeneration of our spirit by Christ."

I ask again, "Did Lazarus have the Spirit of God dwelling in his body when he came out of the tomb?" The above statement from a revered Calvinist on this forum suggests that is exactly what happened. If it were true then many NT scriptures would need to be reconciled to that theology and it would be impossible to do it.

Where was the soul of Lazarus and who was it that heard the command of Jesus to come forth? What exactly happened at the tomb of Lazarus? The very fact that Lazarus heard the voice of Jesus indicates that he was cognizant and that he was awake.

Is it possible that the resurrection of Lazarus, body and soul, was a typical figure for something else and was not a figure for the new birth of a Christian?
Another bait and switch JD? By now we know your tactics.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Another bait and switch JD? By now we know your tactics.
I do not understand the charge. I am trying to help you.

The bible is a Jewish book. It was written by the Jews. The nation that was born in Egypt was the firstborn son of God. It was a natural birth, but this nation was God's elect. God gave this nation his written law and dwelt in the midst of them in their tabernacle in the wilderness and then in the temple in Jerusalem. He chastened them as his son in order to correct him and made provisions to forgive his sins through one who would be born as one of them through a virgin and through this one man the whole nation, his son, could be born again of his Spirit because their Messiah and Savior and King would die for the nation, pouring out his righteous Spirit he had of God so they might have his life, being forgiven of their sins. This was the plan of God and the OT was all about the fulfillment of this plan. This includes the record of the 4 gospel accounts of our Lord's earthly ministry.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law,

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(there was no prophecy about this present age we are living in since the cross so he did not come to fulfill anything you and I are experiencing)

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The fact is that God did not fulfill his promises to his son, Israel, when Jesus Christ came to them, because they rejected him and would not accept his rule over them. It was at this point the generation (this was Jesus generation) that was charged to recognize and to receive their Messiah failed to do so and in this rejection of him committed the unpardonable sin. This meant they were separated from God nationally and was reckoned dead by God. From that point on his message was to individuals in that nation to receive him as savour and the national salvation would take place at his second coming to earth. Meanwhile his salvation was extended to individuals in all nations and through the believers he would build his church a totally new thing in the world, with a new testament, a new book, with new promises and a new creation, and a destiny that would include the New Jerusalem, a heavenly city in the new heaven. Israel the nation would be buried in the graveyards of the nations and would languish under their laws and rules and suffer greatly.

The raising of Lazarus from the dead pictures our Lord's second coming when he will bring him out of his tomb and establish him as the chief nation on the earth. This whole story line is a microcosm of the end of this age when Martha, a picture of the NT church will go out first to meet the Lord before he arrives and Mary represents the saved remnant of Israel during the tribulation and Lazarus represents the resurrection of the nation.

You must rightly divide the word of God or you will make erroneous and harmful applications that does not edify. This age is in what God calls the "times of the gentiles."

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that
 

JDS

Well-known member
Does Calvinism teach soul sleep or not? Is a lost soul in hell cognizant of his condition? If your answer is "yes," then why was he not cognizant of his condition when he was in his body on the earth?
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Does Calvinism teach soul sleep or not? Is a lost soul in hell cognizant of his condition? If your answer is "yes," then why was he not cognizant of his condition when he was in his body on the earth?
I would add to that; how is a soul in hell, while being spiritually dead, be able to be concerned about the souls of the brethren?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Does Calvinism teach soul sleep or not? Is a lost soul in hell cognizant of his condition? If your answer is "yes," then why was he not cognizant of his condition when he was in his body on the earth?
The answer is because of his Cognitive Dissonance; he knows there is a God but prefers to believe the Lie that there is no God...
 

JDS

Well-known member
The answer is because of his Cognitive Dissonance; he knows there is a God but prefers to believe the Lie that there is no God...
I don’t believe that because of this.

Romans 1:18-23
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Does Calvinism teach soul sleep or not? Is a lost soul in hell cognizant of his condition? If your answer is "yes," then why was he not cognizant of his condition when he was in his body on the earth?
Why does he have to be cognizant of his position when he is in his body one Earth?
 

JDS

Well-known member
Why does he have to be cognizant of his position when he is in his body one Earth?
Do you as a Calvinist not teach that a man cannot know spiritual things until he is regenerated (regeneration as defined by Calvinist) and do you not understand that the soul is the spiritual part of man, the unsaved ones in hell? If he can know things about God in hell, why can't he know things about God on earth. Civic said a dead man cannot know anything. Hence, I ask you if the soul is asleep. If hell is a place of torments will it not be confusing for a man to burn forever without knowing why he is burning?

You fellows are in a cult. You cannot reason.

Lk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

the rich man also died, and was buried;


23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Seeing a resurrected man is not how sinners gets saved. We have Lazarus in John 11 as proof of that.



John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

THINK!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Do you as a Calvinist not teach that a man cannot know spiritual things until he is regenerated (regeneration as defined by Calvinist) and do you not understand that the soul is the spiritual part of man, the unsaved ones in hell? If he can know things about God in hell, why can't he know things about God on earth. Civic said a dead man cannot know anything. Hence, I ask you if the soul is asleep. If hell is a place of torments will it not be confusing for a man to burn forever without knowing why he is burning?

You fellows are in a cult. You cannot reason.

Lk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

the rich man also died, and was buried;


23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Seeing a resurrected man is not how sinners gets saved. We have Lazarus in John 11 as proof of that.



John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

THINK!
I do think your not all with it. This is the Edit per mod I think I have ever read
 
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