Does God’s word have the power to save those who are lost ?

[Bob Carabbio]

Lots of people respond in faith to God's word and are not saved.*

AND Lots of people are convicted of sin, surrender, respond in FAITH and ARE saved. There's no "theology" involved - it's a personal transaction.

I agree that "Calvinism" really amounts to nothing of importance - EXCEPT for the one thing it gets right - i.e. in all things GOD MOVES FIRST.

 

[Josheb]

AND Lots of people are convicted of sin, surrender, respond in FAITH and ARE saved.

It's the ones that do those tings and are not saved that is relevant because you claimed they were synonymous with salvation when they are not. That saved people are convicted, surrender, and respond is not in dispute. It is the claim these things are identical to salvation that is disputed.

There's no "theology" involved - it's a personal transaction.

False dichotomy.

I agree that "Calvinism" really amounts to nothing of importance - EXCEPT for the one thing it gets right - i.e. in all things GOD MOVES FIRST.

False dichotomy.

 

[fltom]

Yes it does.

nope

That does not address this

remission of sin logically precedes regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

youi do not address the verse and the sequence it provides

and as you seemed to indicate

and by yiour own words

You should feel convicted and repent, cry out in faith for Christ to cleanse you of those sins and be made perfect. Let's see if that happens.

cleansing from sin follows after repentance which of course requires faith

so faith precedes regeneration

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It's the ones that do those tings and are not saved that is relevant

So - HOW is one "Convicted of SIN", and subsequently Repenting, and calling on God in FAITH not Born Again/saved??

This is getting interesting.

 

[Josheb]

So - HOW is one "Convicted of SIN", and subsequently Repenting, and calling on God in FAITH not Born Again/saved??

This is getting interesting.

No, Bob, it is not "getting interesting." The reason it's not getting interesting is because I've already answered the question just asked, the answer is sitting unattended in the thread, and I'm now being asked a question already answered indicating you're not actually paying attention to anything posted. That's not interesting; it is tiresome.

It also makes you a troll.

So if you want to have an "interesting" conversation then prove it. Go back and re-read what I posted and ask me something I haven't already answered and addressed and show yourself sincere and earnest.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

it is tiresome.

Agreed!!! good bye.

 

[fltom]

Yes it does.

Nope

remission of sin logically precedes regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

and as you seemed to indicate

You should feel convicted and repent, cry out in faith for Christ to cleanse you of those sins and be made perfect. Let's see if that happens.

cleansing from sin follows after repentance which of course requires faith

so faith precedes regeneration

Are you actually going to address the point or do you now want to concede the point?

 

[Josheb]

Nope

remission of sin logically precedes regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Nope. People who are quickened are forgiven and people who are forgiven are quickened. It's not linear, it's co-existent. You read sequence into the text where none is stated.

and as you seemed to indicate

You should feel convicted and repent, cry out in faith for Christ to cleanse you of those sins and be made perfect. Let's see if that happens.

Nope. In fact, I have argued against that very position in the thread on Calvinist Determinism. SO you're arguing a straw man.

cleansing from sin follows after repentance which of course requires faith

Sanctification happens many ways before conversion, at conversion, and following conversion. You're selectively quote mining scripture with eisegetic interpretations, ignoring the whole of scripture.

so faith precedes regeneration

Since every single one of your predicate premises is incorrect so too is your conclusion.

Are you actually going to address the point or do you now want to concede the point?

As I said, already done.

You do not understand it.

 

[fltom]

Nope

remission of sin logically precedes regeneration

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Josheb
Nope. People who are quickened are forgiven and people who are forgiven are quickened. It's not linear, it's co-existent. You read sequence into the text where none is stated.

sorry you ignore scripture and grammar

Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

greek grammar clearly shows regeneration -quickening is logically preceded by forgiveness of sin

Having forgiven us (χαρισαμενος ἡμιν [charisamenos hēmin]). First aorist middle participle of χαριζομαι [charizomai], common verb from χαρις [charis] (favour, grace). Dative of the person common as in 3:13. The act of forgiving is simultaneous with the quickening, though logically antecedent1

1 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Col 2:13.

Grammatically, this bestowal of divine forgiveness is contemporaneous with the divine vivification (NRSV, “God made you alive … when he forgave”; Dunn 145) “though logically antecedent,” Robertson, Pictures 494, or antecedent to it (as RSV, “having forgiven us all our trespasses”) although χαρισάμενος could be causal (REB, “For he has forgiven”).1

1 Murray J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic; WORDsearch, 2012), 96.

Time in Participles

The aorist participle, for example, usually denotes antecedent time to that of the controlling verb. But if the main verb is also aorist, this participle may indicate contemporaneous time. 1

1 Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), 614.

further sin is not remitted without faith and repentance

so faith/repentance preceding remission of sin must precede regeneration

neither scripture or greek scholarship support your claim

and as you seemed to indicate

You should feel convicted and repent, cry out in faith for Christ to cleanse you of those sins and be made perfect. Let's see if that happens.

josheb
Nope. In fact, I have argued against that very position in the thread on Calvinist Determinism. SO you're arguing a straw man.

sorry those are your words and some of the few you got correct

the idea sin is remitted without faith and repentance is clearly unbiblical

Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 13:5 (KJV) — 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5 (KJV) — 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Romans 3:25–26 (KJV) — 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

your theology is unsound and unbiblical

cleansing from sin follows after repentance which of course requires faith

josheb
Sanctification happens many ways before conversion, at conversion, and following conversion. You're selectively quote mining scripture with eisegetic interpretations, ignoring the whole of scripture.

sorry but you do not know what you are talking about

and you have posted nothing which speaks of sin being remitted without faith/repentance

any such whole of scripture exists only in your mind not being found in the bible

so faith precedes regeneration

josheb
Since every single one of your predicate premises is incorrect so too is your conclusion.

sorry you did nothing at all to show that and the evidence that exists refutes you

Are you actually going to address the point or do you now want to concede the point?

Josheb
As I said, already done.

You do not understand it.

You posted nothing to disprove my claim or defend your unbiblical theology

and stand refuted

 

[Josheb]

Having forgiven us (χαρισαμενος ἡμιν [charisamenos hēmin]). First aorist middle participle of χαριζομαι [charizomai], common verb from χαρις [charis] (favour, grace). Dative of the person common as in 3:13. The act of forgiving is simultaneous with the quickening, though logically antecedent1

1 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Col 2:13.

Grammatically, this bestowal of divine forgiveness is contemporaneous with the divine vivification (NRSV, “God made you alive … when he forgave”; Dunn 145) “though logically antecedent,” Robertson, Pictures 494, or antecedent to it (as RSV, “having forgiven us all our trespasses”) although χαρισάμενος could be causal (REB, “For he has forgiven”).1

1 Murray J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic; WORDsearch, 2012), 96.

Time in Participles

The aorist participle, for example, usually denotes antecedent time to that of the controlling verb. But if the main verb is also aorist, this participle may indicate contemporaneous time. 1

1 Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), 614.

further sin is not remitted without faith and repentance so faith/repentance preceding remission of sin must precede regeneration neither scripture or greek scholarship support your claim

Quote mines

You posted nothing to disprove my claim or defend your unbiblical theology and stand refuted

lol! "You ignore! You ignore!"


tom, you've become the laughingstock of the Cal v Arm board. Even other Arms are selective supporting you. The need to take a step back and examine both your methods and your content is substantive. Quote mines, straw men, and false accusations will never prove your position.

 

[fltom]

Quote mines

lol! "You ignore! You ignore!"


tom, you've become the laughingstock of the Cal v Arm board. Even other Arms are selective supporting you. The need to take a step back and examine both your methods and your content is substantive. Quote mines, straw men, and false accusations will never prove your position.

Which you simply ignore just as you ignored the scriptures

LOL you are the real laughing stock here addressing nothing, ignoring all grammatical evidence, ignoring scriptural evidence, making claims you cannot support

A pretty pathetic effort

you have been refuted

 

[Josheb]

Which you simply ignore........

"You ignore! You ignore!"

 

[fltom]

"You ignore! You ignore!"

Truth is truth

you ignored Greek scholarship

You ignored English grammar regarding tense

you ignored scripture

and it will not change until you begin addressing rebuttal and post scripture which actually supports you

As I stated you are refuted

 

[Theophilus]

AND Lots of people are convicted of sin, surrender, respond in FAITH and ARE saved. There's no "theology" involved - it's a personal transaction.

I agree that "Calvinism" really amounts to nothing of importance - EXCEPT for the one thing it gets right - i.e. in all things GOD MOVES FIRST.

Exactly