Does God believe for us?

His clay said:
Of course it was their own faith, no one has denied this. Again, faith can be given by God and one's own. As far as I know, this is the consistent position of the thread by Calvinists.

I'll repeat, lest the point be missed, I certainly did read the passages you appealed to where Jesus said it was their faith. This does not invalidate the fact that God gives faith, since the giving of faith by God does not invalidate personal ownership. Since other revelation from God is true, then we do have to take into account what Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Yes, the passage is debated, but I think that the best understanding of the referent of "touto" is the preceding clause. Thus, the gift, from God is the "by grace through faith salvation." The relationship of the parts to the whole leads us to realize that faith, as part of the whole clause, is one of the elements that has been gifted by God.
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A highly debated and controversial passage is not evidence for either side as you are well aware of brother. But I think everyone agrees that salvation is a free gift that can be affirmed in Eph 2 apart from works.
 
Chalcedon said:
A highly debated and controversial passage is not evidence for either side as you are well aware of brother. But I think everyone agrees that salvation is a free gift that can be affirmed in Eph 2 apart from works.
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Yes, thanks for that statement.

All of salvation is, "ek humon, NOT OUT OF YOU, it is ALL from God.
 
Chalcedon said:
what surgeon lol making things up again ?

I'm talking about faith , conflating again ?

And quote me once ever saying the new birth does not come from God.

next......

hope this helps !!!
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As His Clay mentioned, my little story about the surgeon and heart patient was an illustration. I'm sure you realised that...

Hard hearts don't trust in the Lord, by definition; so, the new, soft heart is required, in order to have faith in Jesus Christ.
 
Slyzr said:
You converting to NOT being human?
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Howie is referring to the Greek in Ephesians 2:8. In Greek it looks like this: ἐξ ὑμῶν
Transliterated (utilizing English characters) it looks like "ek humon".

Howie is also referring to the genitive of source pronoun connected to the preposition, often translated as "out of, from".
Howie then translates the full phrase (οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν) after τοῦτο as "not from you" or "not out of you."
His final statement, "it is ALL from God," comes from the idea inherent in θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον at the end of the verse, pointing to God's gifting. Howie "may" also be referring to verse 10 because verse 10 makes a connection to the previous with γάρ

Did you not understand what Howie was doing with that comment?
 
His clay said:
Howie is referring to the Greek in Ephesians 2:8. In Greek it looks like this: ἐξ ὑμῶν
Transliterated (utilizing English characters) it looks like "ek humon".

Howie is also referring to the genitive of source pronoun connected to the preposition, often translated as "out of, from".
Howie then translates the full phrase (οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν) after τοῦτο as "not from you" or "not out of you."
His final statement, "it is ALL from God," comes from the idea inherent in θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον at the end of the verse, pointing to God's gifting. Howie "may" also be referring to verse 10 because verse 10 makes a connection to the previous with γάρ

Did you not understand what Howie was doing with that comment?
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Thanks for noticing I neglected, "ouk."
 
Reformedguy said:
So if your gifted faith is it then YOUR faith?
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"... not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly (rather, as in the Revised Version so to think as to think soberly, or, more literally, to be minded so as to be sober-minded), according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Why of faith? One might have expected the expression to be, "of grace," as in ver. 6, "according to the grace that is given to us;" or as in Ephesians 4:7, "according to the measure [μέτρον, as here] of the gift of Christ." It seems to be because by faith we become receptive of the grace given to each of us. Hence the faith assigned by God to each is regarded as "the regulative standard; the subjective condition" (Meyer)of the several gifts or graces. Cf. also Matthew 17:20 and 1 Corinthians 13:2, where miraculous powers are spoken of as dependent on the amount of faith. Tholuck explains thus: "Faith in an unseen Christ brings man into connection with a world unseen, in which he moves without distinctly apprehending it; and in proportion as he learns to look with faith to that world, the more is the measure of his spiritual powers elevated."

Pulpit Commentary
 
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Chalcedon said:
Correct its synergistic. I once believed in the heresy of( augustine, calvin ) monergism. :)

what funny is they believe God grants/gives salvation - He does that for us , we don't its a "gift "

yet out of the other side of their mouths deny the same is true with faith- God doesn't believe for us - yes He does to be consistent the same way salvation is a gift and saves for us.

you cannot have your cake and eat it too as they say.

once again exposing the inconsistent calvinist it easy peasy squezy.

refuting the inconsistent calvinist has never been easier and its getting easier by the day, hour, moment. they are full of fallacious arguments and contradictions.

hope this helps !!!
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And denying God believes eliminates the only means by which God saves man from himself.
 
His clay said:
Howie is referring to the Greek in Ephesians 2:8. In Greek it looks like this: ἐξ ὑμῶν
Transliterated (utilizing English characters) it looks like "ek humon".

Howie is also referring to the genitive of source pronoun connected to the preposition, often translated as "out of, from".
Howie then translates the full phrase (οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν) after τοῦτο as "not from you" or "not out of you."
His final statement, "it is ALL from God," comes from the idea inherent in θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον at the end of the verse, pointing to God's gifting. Howie "may" also be referring to verse 10 because verse 10 makes a connection to the previous with γάρ

Did you not understand what Howie was doing with that comment?
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Don't read greek, and definetley NOT disagreeing.

Thanks for the explanation; it raises some interesting questions.
 
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Slyzr said:
Isn't faith gender neutral in the text?

Not sure why some of you guys seem to think that necessatates gifted faith in the text?
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The full verse (Eph 2:8) in Greek is as follows.

Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

πίστεως is the Greek word for "faith" in the verse. It is genitive, feminine, singular.

χάριτί is the Greek word for "grace." It is dative, feminine, singular.

τοῦτο is nominative, neuter, singular; it is translated "this."

Typically, the gender of the pronoun matches the antecedent, but in the case of the verse the neuter "touto" does not match the feminine genders of "grace" and "faith." That is generally what one learns in first year Greek, and it is helpful in getting some translation under your belt. It gives you some rudimentary translation experience if you know the basics like that. However, second year Greek complicates matters by adding a great deal more refining of the rules governing pronouns and their antecedents.

In this case, Paul does utilize the neuter to refer to the previous clause. I can quote my second year Greek book if you wish. This use of the neuter is actually fairly common if you are looking for it during your translations of other parts of the NT. The previous clause in this particular case is the opening clause of the verse: Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως. Hence, my past post in this thread mentioned that the best understanding of the antecedent of touto would be the prior clause, which means that touto is referring backward to "for by grace you are saved through faith." I mentioned that if this is true, then the relationship of the parts to the whole means that since faith is part of the whole clause, which is a gift, then it means that faith is a gift, since faith is part of the whole clause touto refers back toward.
 
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His clay said:
The full verse (Eph 2:8) in Greek is as follows.

Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

πίστεως is the Greek word for "faith" in the verse. It is genitive, feminine, singular.

χάριτί is the Greek word for "grace." It is dative, feminine, singular.

τοῦτο is nominative, neuter, singular; it is translated "this."

Typically, the gender of the pronoun matches the antecedent, but in the case of the verse the neuter "touto" does not match the feminine genders of "grace" and "faith." That is generally what one learns in first year Greek, and it is helpful in getting some translation under your belt. It gives you some rudimentary translation experience if you know the basics like that. However, second year Greek complicates matters by adding a great deal more refining of the rules governing pronouns and their antecedents.

In this case, Paul does utilize the neuter to refer to the previous clause. I can quote my second year Greek book if you wish. This use of the neuter is actually fairly common if you are looking for it during your translations of other parts of the NT. The previous clause in this particular case is the opening clause of the verse: Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως. Hence, my past post in this thread mentioned that the best understanding of the antecedent of touto would be the prior clause, which means that touto is referring backward to "for by grace you are saved through faith." I mentioned that if this is true, then the relationship of the parts to the whole means that since faith is part of the whole clause, which is a gift, then it means that faith is a gift, since faith is part of the whole clause touto refers back toward.
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No ........

and I do not know greek.

But no.

Just because faith is pointing to grace, which obviously has to be case.

Does not then make faith a participle of grace.

But faith is receiver of the gift of grace. (ie through faith)
 
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Slyzr said:
No ........

and I do not know greek.

But no.

Just because faith is pointing to grace, which obviously has to be case.

Does not then make faith a participle of grace.

But faith is receiver of the gift of grace. (ie through faith)
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I honestly don't follow most of what you are saying.
I'm following you with respect to you not knowing Greek.

I'm not sure what you are saying "no" to.
I don't know what you mean by faith pointing to grace.
I don't know what you mean by faith being a participle of grace.

The final sentence you have written is a bit more understandable. But I'll ask anyway. What do you mean by "receiver"?

I noticed that you are fine with "grace" being a gift. But are you not fine with "faith" being a part of what is gifted?

I hope that our only impasse here is just the wording and not the ideas. I'm not following your wording, so I'm not following your meaning. Please explain your meaning in the underlined portions.
 
His clay said:
I honestly don't follow most of what you are saying.
I'm following you with respect to you not knowing Greek.

I'm not sure what you are saying "no" to.
I don't know what you mean by faith pointing to grace.
I don't know what you mean by faith being a participle of grace.

The final sentence you have written is a bit more understandable. But I'll ask anyway. What do you mean by "receiver"?

I noticed that you are fine with "grace" being a gift. But are you not fine with "faith" being a part of what is gifted?

I hope that our only impasse here is just the wording and not the ideas. I'm not following your wording, so I'm not following your meaning. Please explain your meaning in the underlined portions.
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I already did ....

Grace in this event is highly undefined.

Grace for being, grace for not being.

According to Paul it is grace for being.

As a matter of course though, Paul was not real big on any one being apart from his gospel.

He was filing the antecedant participle.

So ya .....

The question is the same.

About faith ..... is it a gift or an acceptance.

And if it is an acceptance ....

Is that a death sentence?
 
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Slyzr said:
But most of the resources I have seen, say genitive neutral.
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"Pisteos" ("faith") in Eph. 2:8 is DEFINITELY feminine genitive singular.

So says the Blue Letter Bible:
www.blueletterbible.org

Ephesians 2 :: King James Version (KJV)

Ephesians 2 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
www.blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org

According to my copy of Accordance...

According to my copy of Mounce's Greek grammar...

Wallace's Greek grammar doesn't specifically mention it, but repeatedly indicates it takes the feminine article, "η". This really isn't debatable.
 
Theo1689 said:
"Pisteos" ("faith") in Eph. 2:8 is DEFINITELY feminine genitive singular.

So says the Blue Letter Bible:
www.blueletterbible.org

Ephesians 2 :: King James Version (KJV)

Ephesians 2 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
www.blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org

According to my copy of Accordance...

According to my copy of Mounce's Greek grammar...

Wallace's Greek grammar doesn't specifically mention it, but repeatedly indicates it takes the feminine article, "η". This really isn't debatable.
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OK ......

You guys are the scholars.

The resources I read said fath is genitive neutral.
 
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