Does God believe for us?

Bob Carabbio said:
One doesn't, since there's no connection at all. In "Conviction of SIN, and of Judgement", GOD SHOWS US, up front and personal, what our TRUE STATUS before Him is. Belief is intrinsic, since disagreement is impossible. Our REACTION, however, is based on other things, mostly our ability to deny what we KNOW to be true.

One doesn't. Same situation. The ability of humans to deceive themselves is limitless.
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Would you say that Paul was in any condition to deny in the face of God's intervention? Saul, in the face of God died, and only Paul survived. God was literally showing Paul that he is a new man. The old (Saul) was gone, and behold all has become new (Paul). By direct intervention by God. If God had never intervened, Saul would have continued on doing what he was doing. He truly believed he was following the very will of God in his attempt to destroy the church.
 
armylngst said:
Would you say that Paul was in any condition to deny in the face of God's intervention? Saul, in the face of God died, and only Paul survived. God was literally showing Paul that he is a new man. The old (Saul) was gone, and behold all has become new (Paul). By direct intervention by God. If God had never intervened, Saul would have continued on doing what he was doing. He truly believed he was following the very will of God in his attempt to destroy the church.
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Agreed -
 
Synergy said:
That confirms that our salvation is synergistic because we do the believing.
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No. You assume much. God makes it possible for us to believe, thus it is monergistic. Why do you deny the words of Christ. With man, it is impossible. IMPOSSIBLE. With God, all things are possible. Monergistic.
 
armylngst said:
No. You assume much. God makes it possible for us to believe, thus it is monergistic. Why do you deny the words of Christ. With man, it is impossible. IMPOSSIBLE. With God, all things are possible. Monergistic.
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Nope. You need to address Rom 10:8-18, which declares that it is possible through the power of the Living Word of God. Paul declares that through the Word of God, man does have the capability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result:

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

So far the only thing you've done is to show just how much you're held captive to Calvinist presuppositions.
 
Synergy said:
Nope. You need to address Rom 10:8-18, which declares that it is possible through the power of the Living Word of God. Paul declares that through the Word of God, man does have the capability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result:

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

So far the only thing you've done is to show just how much you're held captive to Calvinist presuppositions.
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Now for a horror show I call...CONTEXT. Horror for you, close friend for me. Your twisting of scripture is well known to me, because people do it all the time. They find a little snippet that appears to say what they want, and ignore the rest that makes up the ACTUAL context. It is like the movies. The review for this movie said that "This movie was... absolutely amazing...!" However, the review actually said "This movie was an absolutely amazing waste of time!" CONTEXT.

"5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of law: “The man who does these things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [b]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [c]leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [d]leading to salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes upon Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him, 13 for “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who proclaim good news of good things!”

16 However, they did not all heed the [e]good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [f]of Christ.

18 But I say, have they never heard? On the contrary, they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the [g]world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,

“I was found by those who did not seek Me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”"
 
Theo1689 said:
A common (straw-man) criticism of Calvinism is that Calvinists allegedly believe "God believes for us". We don't believe that, and to date no critic has ever been able to quote a Calvinist who actually believes that.

The above poster apparently has me on ignore, so he refuses to answer my questions, but since others have also repeated the same (fallacious) criticism, perhaps there will be some who will address this.

1) Since no Calvinist has EVER taught "God believes for us", and in fact we explicitly DENY it, how is it not dishonest for critics to keep claiming it's our belief?

2) Since it is not something we believe or teach, but apparently comes from rationalization on the part of the critic, why wouldn't it be more honest and charitable to instead assert, "Calvinists don't explicitly teach this, but this seems to be the logical conclusion according to my personal opinion"?

3) Not only do I disagree with the argument, I don't even UNDERSTAND the argument. How does one get from "God gives us faith", to "God believes FOR us"? I honestly don't understand this gross non sequitur.

4) How does one get from "God elected us", to "God believes FOR us"? Again, I don't understand this gross non sequitur.
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No, God doesn't believe for us.

No, Calvinist's don't believe nor do they teach it.

Yes, it is dishonest, rather frankly, a lie to say we do believe or teach these things.

Why would a person repeat this? Because all they have are lies about what others believe, and if they repeat it they don't have to face the truth. It is willfull ignorance on display, and a form of self-deception. It is sowing discord among brothers, and it is stirring up strife. It is spreading slander within the Kingdom and maligning believers in front of the world.

The pattern is this: The person makes the false claim. Calvinist's show the error, that it isn't our beliefs, and some line out why, biblically and kindly. The person makes the same false claim with the exact same post in response. It is cut and paste. This pattern is repeated ad nauseam. There is nothing profitable gained from that exercise of insanity.

The bottom line is it is not Christian behavior, and it isn't the behavior of one being led of the Spirit.
 
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armylngst said:
Now for a horror show I call...CONTEXT. Horror for you, close friend for me. Your twisting of scripture is well known to me, because people do it all the time. They find a little snippet that appears to say what they want, and ignore the rest that makes up the ACTUAL context. It is like the movies. The review for this movie said that "This movie was... absolutely amazing...!" However, the review actually said "This movie was an absolutely amazing waste of time!" CONTEXT.

"5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of law: “The man who does these things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [b]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [c]leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [d]leading to salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes upon Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him, 13 for “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who proclaim good news of good things!”

16 However, they did not all heed the [e]good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [f]of Christ.

18 But I say, have they never heard? On the contrary, they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the [g]world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,

“I was found by those who did not seek Me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”"
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Thank you for quoting all those wonderful verses. I see nothing horrific about the verses you quoted. Paul declares that through the Word of God and by hearing the word of God man does have the ability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result. Man is never left alone by God. It's man who alienates himself from God and, in fact, Paul criticizes Israel for doing just that. Calvinist myths always dissolve when the light of Scripture and their context is applied to them.
 
Synergy said:
Thank you for quoting all those wonderful verses. I see nothing horrific about the verses you quoted. Paul declares that through the Word of God and by hearing the word of God man does have the ability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result. Man is never left alone by God. It's man who alienates himself from God and, in fact, Paul criticizes Israel for doing just that. Calvinist myths always dissolve when the light of Scripture and their context is applied to them.
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Yep Calvinism rips verses from their context imagines determinism and ignores the fact Israel's failure is based on Israel's failing and not unconditional election to salvation according to scripture as seen in chapter 9, 120, 11

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Romans 10:16–21 (KJV 1900) — 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:20–23 (KJV 1900) — 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
 
Synergy said:
Paul declares that through the Word of God and by hearing the word of God man does have the ability to confess and believe in God and to be saved as a result.
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Um, no.
That is NOT what Paul is saying.
Paul NEVER says that EVERYONE who hears the gospel receives some imaginary "ability" to confess and believe in God. The proclamation of the gospel is simply the means God uses to regenerated the ELECT.

But let's suppose your fairy tale were true.... That would mean that those who have NEVER heard the gospel have no ability to "conrfess and believe".

So how is THAT fair?s
 
Theo1689 said:
Um, no.
That is NOT what Paul is saying.
Paul NEVER says that EVERYONE who hears the gospel receives some imaginary "ability" to confess and believe in God. The proclamation of the gospel is simply the means God uses to regenerated the ELECT.

But let's suppose your fairy tale were true.... That would mean that those who have NEVER heard the gospel have no ability to "conrfess and believe".

So how is THAT fair?s
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Er he regenerates those who believe

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 
fltom said:
Er he regenerates those who believe

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
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That doesn't say anything about "regenerates".

fltom said:
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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That doesn't say anything about "regenerates".

You keep CONFLATING "regeneration" and "eternal life".
They are NOT the same thing.

And continuing to vomit the same gainsaying ten million times is not going to change the fact that you are simply WRONG.

So once again, the GROWN UP thing to do is to say, "Let's agree to disagree".

Let's agree to disagree, Tom.

Are you a grown up?
Show us that you're a grown up.
Agree to disagree, instead of constantly bullying.
 
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