Does God believe in atheists?

[docphin5]

I certainly can, and probably in more of it than you can mention. I’m not on this blog to address that. I am on this blog to confront the same thing you are... thoughtless fundamentalism. You just confront it with gnosticism. I confront it with their own history and the very human evolution of their orthodoxy.

Well, Paul whiffed and the early church took him elsewhere when the confronted gnosticism as heresy. That’s what we are dealing with now. You can oppose fundamentalism with an attempt at gnostic revival... good luck. The world moved beyond it.

But you offer nothing as an alternative to religion other than atheistic nihilism. Atheism taken to its logical conclusion is nihilism. People will follow your ideology and end up at a dead end just as bible literalists have ended up at a dead end unable to answer fundamental questions about life.

Christian Gnosticism is at its root an inner process of spiritual life. Per Baur, gnosticism “is nothing but the immanent self-revelation of spirit.” The christ is the ever flowing spirit in all pious men. People are looking to the inner spirit for answers. Atheism and bible literalism are dead ends.

 

[5wize]

But you offer nothing as an alternative to religion other than atheistic nihilism. Atheism taken to its logical conclusion is nihilism.

Garbage. Atheism exalts this life as far more precious and real than any Star Wars cosmic battle fantasy.

People will follow your ideology and end up at a dead end just as bible literalists have ended up at a dead end unable to answer fundamental questions about life.

No they don’t. They are able to confront the richness of this life because they are not musing about some other-worldly cosmic script filling up their minds.

Christian Gnosticism is at its root an inner process of spiritual life. Per Baur, gnosticism “is nothing but the immanent self-revelation of spirit.” The christ is the ever flowing spirit in all pious men.

What you are describing is merely a coming to terms with one’s moral reality. Gnosticism is not a necessary framework for that.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Garbage. Atheism exalts this life as far more precious and real than any Star Wars cosmic battle fantasy.

No they don’t. They are able to confront the richness of this life because they are not musing about some other-worldly cosmic script filling up their minds.

Does the "richness of this life" include bone cancer in children or is that a bugaboo to be used only against Christian apologists?

 

[docphin5]

Garbage. Atheism exalts this life as far more precious and real than any Star Wars cosmic battle fantasy.

No they don’t. They are able to confront the richness of this life because they are not musing about some other-worldly cosmic script filling up their minds.

What you are describing is merely a coming to terms with one’s moral reality. Gnosticism is not a necessary framework for that.

The moral reality is the root of jewish-christian gnosticism, otherwise all that is left is pagan ritualism, ie., the slaughtering of animals, food purity laws, sabbaths, feasts, and hundreds of outward rituals. Christian Gnosticism abrogates them all as having no efficacy for moral perfection, but holds them merely for instruction, after allegorization or pesher or midrash technique.

Certainly, you can forgo the Hebrew-christian scriptures all together and pursue moral perfection on your own. That is the beauty of a universal religion, it is open to all. But do not condemn Yeshua or Paul for finding in their own scriptures an allegorical meaning that supports the inner spiritual life and arguably more, eg., a metaphysical connection between our world and a divine one.

BTW, I thought atheists rejected any objective morality. It is all subjective, whatever man wants it to be. Whereas, Christian gnostics, as well as Greek moral philosophers held to an objective moral reality.

 

[5wize]

The moral reality is the root of jewish-christian gnosticism, otherwise all that is left is pagan ritualism, ie., the slaughtering of animals, food purity laws, sabbaths, feasts, and hundreds of outward rituals. Christian Gnosticism abrogates them all as having no efficacy for moral perfection, but holds them merely for instruction, after allegorization or pesher or midrash technique.

Certainly, you can forgo the Hebrew-christian scriptures all together and pursue moral perfection on your own. That is the beauty of a universal religion, it is open to all. But do not condemn Yeshua or Paul for finding in their own scriptures an allegorical meaning that supports the inner spiritual life and arguably more, eg., a metaphysical connection between our world and a divine one.

Fine. I’m not here to promote any of that.

BTW, I thought atheists rejected any objective morality. It is all subjective, whatever man wants it to be. Whereas, Christian gnostics, as well as Greek moral philosophers held to an objective moral reality.

Very wrong. Human morality finds its roots in our very real and very objective moral natures. Cultures may have subjective expressions via cultural narratives for those, but the underlying reality that gives them form is an objective human nature.

The Greek philosophical school of Epicureanism outlines this.

 

[Judges13:18]

I don't worship anything.

Sin is your master. Just as that is true of all human beings. Only believers in Christ are set free from the bondage of the flesh.

 

[Judges13:18]

What's that bit about the images of animals all about?

Idol worship.

Do you think all atheists have images of said animals instead of God?

All unredeemed, unsaved human beings worship the creation in some form and not the creator.

 

[docphin5]

Fine. I’m not here to promote any of that.

Then why attack what you do not know?

Very wrong. Human morality finds its roots in our very real and very objective moral natures. Cultures may have subjective expressions via cultural narratives for those, but the underlying reality that gives them form is an objective human nature.

The Greek philosophical school of Epicureanism outlines this.

If that be so, then you should have no disagreement with christian gnosticism or greek moral philosophy for the goals are the same, ie., an inner spiritualism manifest as very real and objective virtues in ones life.

 

[5wize]

Then why attack what you do not know?

But I do know it. I’ve studied it.

If that be so, then you should have no disagreement with christian gnosticism or greek moral philosophy for the goals are the same, ie., an inner spiritualism manifest as very real and objective virtues in ones life.

As long as we don’t have to adhere to some other-worldly cosmic battle scenes. There’s enough to engage with that your eyes can see and your hands can touch.

 

[docphin5]

But I do know it. I’ve studied it.

…you mean just like bible literalists have studied it? IOW, you have read it, so it means what it literally says.

As long as we don’t have to adhere to some other-worldly cosmic battle scenes. There’s enough to engage with that your eyes can see and your hands can touch.

Then why attack what you do not know? If you can reach moral perfection without any divine existence, anywhere, then why attack those who do perceive such things?

 

[5wize]

…you mean just like bible literalists have studied it? IOW, you have read it, so it means what it literally says.

No.

Then why attack what you do not know?

I told you I do know it.

If you can reach moral perfection without any divine existence, anywhere, then why attack those who do perceive such things?

It depends on what they believe about the ones that don’t believe as they do.

 

[docphin5]

No.

I told you I do know it.

You have read it, but show no evidence that you “know it”, otherwise, you would not absolutely condemn it.

It depends on what they believe about the ones that don’t believe as they do.

But you make absolute claims against religion. There is no “depends” when you absolutely reject religion, especially the jewish-Christian one. You demonstrate in your statements an absolute bias against religion. Then you claim you “know” all that scriptures could mean, which is highly doubtful, and still find nothing of value.

It is why I say that you have a huge chip on your shoulder. Because your absolute condemnation of religion is unjustified.

 

[5wize]

You have read it, but show no evidence that you “know it”,

Are you pulling a SteveB on me? If I don’t accept it as true I’ll never realize the truth of it?

otherwise, you would not absolutely condemn it.

Listen, I was asked by SBTL a question about how I view the type of belief he holds and I gave him that answer, that being I don’t believe the Jewish nationalism expressed in the OT is a revelation of god and the musing of Paul in the NT were not more than someone who was once a pharisee and jumped on the apocalyptic tradition of the Essenes after some psycho-spiritual event and he went out melting Hellenism with Apocalyptic Judaism trying to make sense of a crucified messiah to a wider Hellenized audience. That’s all. It’s what I believe based on reading the history we know surrounding it as well as the Bible itself.

I think that’s why you are so offended here. I pulled in a gnostic cult hero of yours, Paul.

But you make absolute claims against religion.

Yes. I am a Stoic with hint’s of Epicureanism. Those are the traditions I think out of now. There is a well founded school of thought backing it, not just some random disdain. The disdain is saved for the practices of religious exclusivity in human affairs. You are guilty of that by coating all human affairs in gnosticism for us all. I reject gnosticism as a viable world-view.

There is no “depends” when you absolutely reject religion, especially the jewish-Christian one. You demonstrate in your statements an absolute bias against religion. Then you claim you “know” all that scriptures could mean, which is highly doubtful, and still find nothing of value.

It is why I say that you have a huge chip on your shoulder. Because your absolute condemnation of religion is unjustified.

This is over the top. Like I stated above... I dragged Paul in so those are fighting words for you and where I target my disdain “depends" exclusively on whether someone is practicing some form of religious exclusivity on the world.

No one ever asked me to defend religion. Do you want me to?

 

[Whatsisface]

Sin is your master.

No it isn't.

Just as that is true of all human beings. Only believers in Christ are set free from the bondage of the flesh.

Does that include paedophile priests?

 

[Whatsisface]

Idol worship.


All unredeemed, unsaved human beings worship the creation in some form and not the creator.

I don't worship anyone or anything. Worship sounds unhealthy for all concerned.

 

[docphin5]

Are you pulling a SteveB on me? If I don’t accept it as true I’ll never realize the truth of it?

Nope.

Listen, I was asked by SBTL a question about how I view the type of belief he holds and I gave him that answer, that being I don’t believe the Jewish nationalism expressed in the OT is a revelation of god and the musing of Paul in the NT were not more than someone who was once a pharisee and jumped on the apocalyptic tradition of the Essenes after some psycho-spiritual event and he went out melting Hellenism with Apocalyptic Judaism trying to make sense of a crucified messiah to a wider Hellenized audience. That’s all. It’s what I believe based on reading the history we know surrounding it as well as the Bible itself.

This rant demonstrates my point exactly, ie., that you 1) do not know what you are talking about, and 2) are dogmatic that the judeo-christian religion is absolutely worthless.

^^^^ huge chip on shoulder^^^^

I think that’s why you are so offended here. I pulled in a gnostic cult hero of yours, Paul.

it is not just paul but religion in general that you absolutely condemn, consistently.

^^^ huge chip on shoulder^^^^

Yes. I am a Stoic with hint’s of Epicureanism. Those are the traditions I think out of now. There is a well founded school of thought backing it, not just some random disdain. The disdain is saved for the practices of religious exclusivity in human affairs. You are guilty of that by coating all human affairs in gnosticism for us all. I reject gnosticism as a viable world-view.

You are ranting again and making false generalizations. I do not coat all human affairs in gnosticism. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Christian gnosticism is about allegorizing Hebrew scriptures to produce a universal moral religion for all. Yeshua did it. Paul did it. It is specific knowledge about God and God’s will for ALL humans through allegorizing Hebrew scriptures. Since you want nothing to do with Hebrew scriptures then you can live your life free from being coated in it.

BTW, my favorite Stoic, namely, Seneca, taught similar ideas as Paul did about the rising God within man. In fact, they were pen pals according to some accounts.

This is over the top. Like I stated above... I dragged Paul in so those are fighting words for you and where I target my disdain “depends" exclusively on whether someone is practicing some form of religious exclusivity on the world.

I am not fighting with you. Merely pointing out that huge chip on your shoulder.

No one ever asked me to defend religion. Do you want me to?

Since you asked, Maybe try being less angry about religion since you clearly do not know what you are talking about. Live your moral life without trashing everything religious. There is good to be found in it.

 

[5wize]

Nope.

This rant demonstrates my point exactly, ie., that you 1) do not know what you are talking about, and 2) are dogmatic that the judeo-christian religion is absolutely worthless.

^^^^ huge chip on shoulder^^^^



it is not just paul but religion in general that you absolutely condemn, consistently.

^^^ huge chip on shoulder^^^^


You are ranting again and making false generalizations. I do not coat all human affairs in gnosticism. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Christian gnosticism is about allegorizing Hebrew scriptures to produce a universal moral religion for all. Yeshua did it. Paul did it. It is specific knowledge about God and God’s will for ALL humans through allegorizing Hebrew scriptures. Since you want nothing to do with Hebrew scriptures then you can live your life free from being coated in it.

BTW, my favorite Stoic, namely, Seneca, taught similar ideas as Paul did about the rising God within man. In fact, they were pen pals according to some accounts.


I am not fighting with you. Merely pointing out that huge chip on your shoulder.


Since you asked, Maybe try being less angry about religion since you clearly do not know what you are talking about. Live your moral life without trashing everything religious. There is good to be found in it.

You sound like somebody that is not familiar with the classic arguments against theism. Instead of telling me, someone way more read on the variety of materials regarding this, that I don’t know what I’m talking about, you should get more familiar with them… then we’ll talk and you will see that it’s not just a “chip”, but a very well entrenched tradition of thought.

You however are just a gnostic. It’s weird, and myopic stuff indeed. A philosophical one trick pony. The world came out of some grand cosmic Star Wars battle.

 

[5wize]

Nope.

This rant demonstrates my point exactly, ie., that you 1) do not know what you are talking about, and 2) are dogmatic that the judeo-christian religion is absolutely worthless.

^^^^ huge chip on shoulder^^^^



it is not just paul but religion in general that you absolutely condemn, consistently.

^^^ huge chip on shoulder^^^^


You are ranting again and making false generalizations. I do not coat all human affairs in gnosticism. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Christian gnosticism is about allegorizing Hebrew scriptures to produce a universal moral religion for all. Yeshua did it. Paul did it. It is specific knowledge about God and God’s will for ALL humans through allegorizing Hebrew scriptures. Since you want nothing to do with Hebrew scriptures then you can live your life free from being coated in it.

BTW, my favorite Stoic, namely, Seneca, taught similar ideas as Paul did about the rising God within man. In fact, they were pen pals according to some accounts.


I am not fighting with you. Merely pointing out that huge chip on your shoulder.


Since you asked, Maybe try being less angry about religion since you clearly do not know what you are talking about. Live your moral life without trashing everything religious. There is good to be found in it.

You sound like somebody that is not familiar with the classic arguments against theism. Instead of telling me, someone way more read on the variety of materials regarding this, that I don’t know what I’m talking about, you should get more familiar with them… then we’ll talk and you will see that it’s not just a “chip”, but a very well entrenched tradition of thought.

You however are a gnostic. It’s weird, and myopic stuff indeed. Some cosmic Star Wars battle defines our reality? Come on man. Get serious.

It really sounds like you have the chip on your shoulder. You are trying to revive a dead and heretical interpretation of the Bible and no one is buying it.

 

[Judges13:18]

No it isn't.

You sin. You are not perfect.
All humans eventually become slaves to sin.

Does that include paedophile priests?

Yes.
Pedophile priests are not believers.

 

[Judges13:18]

I don't worship anyone or anything. Worship sounds unhealthy for all concerned.

You just don't realize that you worship created things.

All humans eventually submit to and are mastered by creation.