Does God believe this is true?

[jonathan_hili]

I suppose one could do all of that if they have time, but the born again experience can happen in a flash - like the blink of an eye. I doubt anyone is going to or needs to say 'wait God - I have my list of sins to confess... here somewhere...'

do you think He doesn't already know what they are?

Sure. I meant "sins" in a generic sense.

 

[balshan]

If the person knew the Catholic Church was established by Christ and that the pope was instituted as Christ's prime minister or vicar on earth, then to deliberately disobey the pope would be to disobey the Church, which would be to disobey Christ. That can imperil salvation.

That is a false claim because scripture is clear to follow wolves in sheep' clothing leads to peril. Your institution has shown itself to be a wolf

 

[RayneBeau]

Excellent question, I mean you would think not. I mean God is the same yesterday, tomorrow and today. So if infallibility was true then it can not change. But we know it is not a true teaching.

Yes, this is so true on many levels. First the RCC makes their own unbiblical claim that Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, was the first pope and that he was infallible. Then nearly 1900 years later the RCC pulls another rabbit out of their hat and declares that every presiding Roman Catholic pope "enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office . . ." Currently, the RCC proclaims that it is not only the RCC pope that is infallible when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and practice, but now the bishops also are claimed to be infallible when they speak "with one voice" - but only on the Roman Catholic condition that all bishops agree on a doctrine. Then they are assured freedom from error "provided they are in union with the Roman Catholic pope, and their teaching is subject to his authority.

 

[RayneBeau]

Don't bring poor Paul in to support your blind obedience to someone other than God. You reject the bulk of his writings and then twist the rest to try and make it suit your false beliefs. Poor Paul he is misused by the RCC.

RCs need to be consistent in their beliefs. You show the inconsistentency of the teachings in Post 3. There is no salvation outside of the church but just in case we are wrong we will use Paul. We will twist his writings. The real church that Paul talks about is not your institution. I mean he rejects sexual sin than your institution has wallowed in throughout the centuries.

The answer to the op:

it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff"

is no. He is just a man and is fallible at all times. He is not a successor of Peter, who would be appalled by its evil behaviour throughout the centuries.

You are so 'spot on' Balshan. Why do Roman Catholics choose to be blind to all the evidence that proves that the RCC pope, the bishops and the Magisterium are all fallible? The pope is not infallible, the apostles were unique and had no successors; and there is no need whatsoever for a 'Magisterium.' The survival of Christ's church does not depend on some man-made claim of apostolic succession that the Roman Catholic Church clings on to as the lifeblood of their church's foundational teaching. Roman Catholics should ask themselves if the promise of Jesus Christ to be with His followers "to the end of the age" requires apostolic succession?

 

[RayneBeau]

Well if we are all sinners, how is it possible that non believers will not sin? If they do some works without a selfish motive it still will not be enough will it. There is not a balance scaled where their good deeds are on one side and their bad deeds on another. Paul is clearly saying that it will never be enough to eradicate them from judgement.

Rom 3:23

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Rom 3:10

As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Rom 5:8

But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

True, even if non-believers may never be angry in deed, for example, what they cannot change is their total disposition, which is unseen. Jesus Christ demands the impossibility of anger in a person's disposition - meaning what's in the person's mind behind their deed. The stimulus of a persons motives must be so right and pure that right deeds will always follow naturally.

 

[Teresa]

True, even if non-believers may never be angry in deed, for example, what they cannot change is their total disposition, which is unseen. Jesus Christ demands the impossibility of anger in a person's disposition - meaning what's in the person's mind behind their deed. The stimulus of a persons motives must be so right and pure that right deeds will always follow naturally.

Rom 2 12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Hebrews expresses a similar concept of Gods mercy towards unsaved Jews.

Heb 11 13 All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, 14 for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them.

 

[mica]

Rom 2 12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Hebrews expresses a similar concept of Gods mercy towards unsaved Jews.

Heb 11 13 All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, 14 for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them.

Why do you say they were unsaved?

 

[Teresa]

Why do you say they were unsaved?

I could have put it in 'quotes' to denote the attitude of some rather than their state.

 

[Bonnie]

Yes, this is so true on many levels. First the RCC makes their own unbiblical claim that Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, was the first pope and that he was infallible. Then nearly 1900 years later the RCC pulls another rabbit out of their hat and declares that every presiding Roman Catholic pope "enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office . . ." Currently, the RCC proclaims that it is not only the RCC pope that is infallible when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and practice, but now the bishops also are claimed to be infallible when they speak "with one voice" - but only on the Roman Catholic condition that all bishops agree on a doctrine. Then they are assured freedom from error "provided they are in union with the Roman Catholic pope, and their teaching is subject to his authority.

Yep--what the RCC says in this matter is so much this:

 

[mica]

jonathan_hili said:
If the person knew the Catholic Church was established by Christ and that the pope was instituted as Christ's prime minister or vicar on earth, then to deliberately disobey the pope would be to disobey the Church, which would be to disobey Christ. That can imperil salvation.

wouldn't you want to know how this person knows these things? what is their source for all of this knowledge ?

would you just accept what this person claims to know as the truth or would you investigate it for yourself?

I'd want to know for myself what Christ has to say about the claims made by this person. I'd want to hear it directly from Christ Himself.

If it is something so important that it could imperil one's salvation, then I'd want to hear it straight from the top Person Who is responsible for salvation, not some secretary, assistant or other self proclaimed representative.