Does God Want Everyone to Know Him?

[SteveB]

Regarding Deut 6:4, Barker says that it could easily be taken as a “statement of unity of YHWH as the one inclusive summing up all the heavenly powers, the ‘elohim’ [plural for gods] then it would have been compatible with belief in God Most High also”, (”The Great Angel”, pg 193) as in what Paul wrote,

a) ‘there is ONE [Most High] God, the Father…AND (+) ONE Lord, Jesus Christ’ (1 Cor 8:6) and
b) “all things [to include the elohim or gods] are summed up in him [christ Jesus], things in heaven and things on earth.” (Ephesians 1:10)

This goes to show that there are multiple possible meanings of scripture to include those traditionally thought to hold only one meaning. You just have to scratch the surface a bit to see what else it could mean.

Practically speaking, Judaism is not monotheistic because YHWH-Elohim was considered a Son of God, IOW, a second God, who himself, in the present universe is two powers, or, gods, (ie., the Divine Triad) mixed into all things producing
life and death,
producing light and darkness,
good and bad,
spirit and matter,
new covenant and old covenant,
grace and Law,
freedom and bondage,
last and first Man (Adam),
new creation and old creation.

It behooves us to know which one rules the world to come and which one rules this one.

Considering that in Hebrews 1 we see that God has explicitly stated he has spoken to us in these last days by his son who is sustaining the cosmos by the power of his own word. And we further see in Matthew 28 that all authority and power has been given to Jesus, I'd say that He's the one who rules everything.

 

[docphin5]

So?
Is Barker God?
Did he die for us, and rise from the dead so we can come live with him when we die?

Because if not, then I find myself wondering why would I care what Barker said, when YHVH said that he will give us a heart to know him and Jesus said that he will give us the Spirit of God as a comforter, guide, instructor, teacher and make sure that everything we need to know him will be given to us....

Another question I have is....
Who are you following? Because you're making it seem like you're a follower of Barker, and not Jesus.



You're going to have to provide evidence of this.
Because in biblical christianity, there is only One God. His name is YHVH and his Son's name is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is our regenerator and sustainer who ensures that we are regenerated and made spiritually alive through faith in Jesus.

Sounds like you haven't actually read the bible.
Isa 43:10-11 WEB 10 “You are my witnesses,” says Yahweh, “With my servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, neither will there be after me. 11 I myself am Yahweh. Besides me, there is no savior.

Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, Yahweh, my rock, and my redeemer.

Psa 78:35 They remembered that God was their rock, the Most High God, their redeemer.

13 verses found.


Isa 41:14 Don’t be afraid, you worm Jacob, and you men of Israel. I will help you,” says Yahweh. “Your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 43:14 Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel says: “For your sake, I have sent to Babylon, and I will bring all of them down as fugitives, even the Chaldeans, in the ships of their rejoicing.

Isa 44:6 This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Isa 44:24 Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb says: “I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who alone stretches out the heavens; who spreads out the earth by myself;

Isa 47:4 Our Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies is his name, is the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 48:17 Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, says: “I am Yahweh your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you by the way that you should go.

Isa 49:7 Yahweh, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, says to him whom man despises, to him whom the nation abhors, to a servant of rulers: “Kings shall see and rise up, princes, and they shall worship, because of Yahweh who is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

Isa 49:26 I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh; and they will be drunk on their own blood, as with sweet wine. Then all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband; Yahweh of Armies is his name. The Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer. He will be called the God of the whole earth.

Isa 54:8 In overflowing wrath I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting loving kindness I will have mercy on you,” says Yahweh your Redeemer.

Isa 59:20 “A Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from disobedience in Jacob,” says Yahweh.

Isa 60:16 You will also drink the milk of the nations, and will nurse from royal breasts. Then you will know that I, Yahweh, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Isa 63:16 For you are our Father, though Abraham doesn’t know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us. You, Yahweh, are our Father. Our Redeemer from everlasting is your name.

Jer 50:34 Their Redeemer is strong. Yahweh of Armies is his name. He will thoroughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the earth, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.

Hos 13:4 WEB “Yet I am Yahweh your God from the land of Egypt; and you shall acknowledge no god but me, and besides me there is no savior.


Mal 3:6 WEB “For I, Yahweh, don’t change; therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

So, I'm thinking that you would gain great benefit from just reading the bible. Then you will be able to see what YHVH himself says, and not just what others claim that YHVH says.




Yeah..... opinions of men are indeed helpful, but when they clearly contradict what YHVH himself has stated, it's a serious problem.

Thank you for clarifying.

Well, since you have demonstrated that you don't actually know what the bible says about YHVH, it's pretty clear that we can toss all of this out as garbage.

This is exactly why it's so important to read the bible for ourselves. You have concocted a god of Barker's own imagination and not the True and Living God, YHVH.



Further demonstrating that the problem here is that you have chosen to make a man by the name of Barker, your god.

Your undoing Steve, like so many, is the failure to perceive the Bible was written by MEN for MEN in order to instruct MEN about God or gods (Elohim) plan for MEN. It was NOT written pen-in-hand by any invisible God, --but by MEN presumably inspired by something greater than themselves. This should go without saying, but apparently some people did not get the memo.

Therefore,
* I do NOT worship Barker,
* my opinions and opinions of scholars (eg Barker) are supported by numerous references in extant writings of preChristian Jews,
* I DO know what is written in the Bible
* YHWH did not write the Bible with a pen in hand,
* the Bible was written for "instruction'" per Paul, rather than for historical or literal meaning. Allegory has been a literary technique since Men began writing myths on clay tablets five thousand years ago and that is how Paul interprets the Bible (Galatians 4:24)
* you are welcome to believe whatever you want, but others may choose NOT to follow your lead.

 

[docphin5]

Considering that in Hebrews 1 we see that God has explicitly stated he has spoken to us in these last days by his son who is sustaining the cosmos by the power of his own word. And we further see in Matthew 28 that all authority and power has been given to Jesus, I'd say that He's the one who rules everything.

"“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world...I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:36)

How can Jesus rule this material world when he explicitly says this material world is "not" the kingdom he rules? His statement implies that he rules another world that will subsume this one at some future point. Right, he inherits everything at some point but NOT at the present time or place of existence? He came to tell us, "I got this, but you have to be patient. I will come again to carry you across that threshold."

 

[Furion]

How can Jesus rule this material world when he explicitly says this material world is "not" the kingdom he rules?

Umm, He can rule both?

Is there some forbidden quality to ruling both?

 

[docphin5]

Umm, He can rule both?

Is there some forbidden quality to ruling both?

So, your position is that Jesus was wrong to exclude this world from his kingdom and you are here to set the record straight. you do you.

 

[Furion]

So, your position is that Jesus was wrong to exclude this world from his kingdom and you are here to set the record straight. you do you.

?

I asked you whether you think Christ cannot rule both.

Do you have an answer?

 

[docphin5]

?

I asked you whether you think Christ cannot rule both.

Do you have an answer?

Why would I answer your hypothetical question when the words of Jesus are quite clear? This material world is NOT the kingdom he rules. Nevertheless, his kingdom indwells us with regards to our souls. To wit, our souls he rules over and our souls are delivered to his future kingdom. The material world is currently ruled by the “God of this [material] world.” (2 cor 4:4). And his “works” must be destroyed before the new kingdom comes. (1 John 3:8)

 

[Furion]

Why would I answer your hypothetical question when the words of Jesus are quite clear? This material world is NOT the kingdom he rules. Nevertheless, his kingdom indwells us with regards to our souls. To wit, our souls he rules over and our souls are delivered to his future kingdom. The material world is currently ruled by the “God of this world.” (2 cor 4:4)

You can answer however you want.

Christ currently resides over the whole universe, made by Him and for Him.

That Satan is given certain power over this earth does not erase Christ, it just means Satan was given authority. Which will also be removed at the appointed time.

 

[docphin5]

You can answer however you want.

Christ currently resides over the whole universe, made by Him and for Him.

That Satan is given certain power over this earth does not erase Christ, it just means Satan was given authority. Which will also be removed at the appointed time.

Except that the material world (cosmos) is in a fallen state NOT due to Jesus but due to his Adversary, the one who caused this world to be in its current state. Therefore, the fallen world NOT ruled by Jesus because it as you say under a different authority. Otherwise, you have the savior the cause of suffering and death, tsunamis, chaos, earthquakes, etc. Simply, this material world is mixed with good and bad due to two powers at odds with each other. One is the “god of this [material] world” and another is saving souls for his future kingdom after inheriting this one. IOW, he makes the new creation from the old one by bringing order to existence itself. In that way, he demonstrates authority over all things.

Currently, in our present circumstances the savior is co-equal with the destroyer. Jesus over souls, the destroyer over flesh or matter. But in the new creation the destroyer will be destroyed himself leaving only one ruler, the savior who then delivers “all things” to his heavenly Father, the absolute Good One and preexistent One.

 

[Furion]

Except that the material world (cosmos) is in a fallen state NOT due to Jesus but due to his Adversary, the one who caused this world to be in its current state. Therefore, the fallen world NOT ruled by Jesus because it as you say under a different authority. Otherwise, you have the savior the cause of suffering and death, tsunamis, chaos, earthquakes, etc. Simply, this material world is mixed with good and bad due to two powers at odds with each other. One is the “god of this [material] world” and another is saving souls for his future kingdom after inheriting this one. IOW, he remakes the new creation from the old one. In that way, he demonstrates authority over all things.

Currently, in our present circumstances the savior is co-equal with the destroyer. But in the new creation the destroyer will be destroyed himself leaving only one ruler, the savior who then delivers “all things” to his heavenly Father, the absolute Good One and preexistent One.

Christ is not in competition with the Destroyer.

Satan was granted limited authority for a limited time.

This fact does not conclude all that you speculate.

 

[docphin5]

Christ is not in competition with the Destroyer.

sure he is. Just as the destroyer condemns and kills Jesus offers mercy and gives life. Who do you think opposes the Savior, The energizer bunny?

Satan was granted limited authority for a limited time.

Right, that authority and time would be the PRESENT cosmos which is why the Lord of matter is also the “God of this [material] world.” The Savior saves souls from this dying material world.

This fact does not conclude all that you speculate.

 

[Furion]

sure he is. Just as the destroyer condemns and kills Jesus offers mercy and gives life. Who do you think opposes Christ, The energizer bunny?

I don't care if you think it's an epic battle, that is true.

Right, that authority and time would be the PRESENT cosmos which is why the Lord of matter is also the “God of this [material] world.” The Savior saves souls from this dying material world.

I won't dive into your mental state.

If you think Satan has authority over you that's your business. If you think Satan has authority over tornadoes then he is missing my house every day.

 

[docphin5]

I don't care if you think it's an epic battle, that is true.



I won't dive into your mental state.

If you think Satan has authority over you that's your business.

I did not say he has authority over Me. The “spirit of Jesus” in me regulates my flesh while my mind submits to the inner moral consciousness. At some point the destroyer reclaims my flesh in the present fallen world ruled by him. But I fear not his power because my soul has been sealed by the spirit of Jesus for the new kingdom to come.

You got to put it all together otherwise it is a jumbled mess of contradictory doctrines. They make sense when part of a whole picture.

If you think Satan has authority over tornadoes then he is missing my house every day.

Knock on wood. Knock on wood.

 

[Furion]

I did not say he has authority over Me.

Are you not a part of the "Cosmos"?

You got to put it all together otherwise it is a jumbled mess of contradictory doctrines.

You don't understand, I am assessing how you have put it all together. I don't really like to do it but you left me no choice. But only in small doses, mind you.

And no, I don't knock on wood, I'm not a superstitious pagan.

 

[docphin5]

Are you not a part of the "Cosmos"?

Ok, a rhetorical question for some unclear purpose. Do you care to explain what your point is?

You don't understand, I am assessing how you have put it all together. I don't really like to do it but you left me no choice. But only in small doses, mind you.

Asses all you want. I am an open book.

And no, I don't knock on wood, I'm not a superstitious pagan.

Yet you hold to Christian superstitions and myths as historical events. No different than the pagans with their own superstitions and myths.

 

[Furion]

Ok, a rhetorical question for some unclear purpose.

Why is it unclear to you?

Can you not follow the conversation?

You claimed all the cosmos, so now you see your claim was way too broad.

Satan does not control you (believers) nor tornadoes. In fact we can only assume if he wants to do something to anyone who trusts in the Lord he may very well need to ask permission.

Yet you hold to Christian superstitions and myths...

I've reached the end of the line with you.

I'll leave you with the last word, and probably other things you will claim about me.

 

[SteveB]

Your undoing Steve, like so many, is the failure to perceive the Bible was written by MEN for MEN in order to instruct MEN about God or gods (Elohim) plan for MEN. It was NOT written pen-in-hand by any invisible God, --but by MEN presumably inspired by something greater than themselves. This should go without saying, but apparently some people did not get the memo.

?????‍
No. Being written by men was the first thing I noticed about the bible.
All my school books, textbooks, etc. are all written by men and women.
Even your very own Barker is a man who wrote his opinions on the bible.
So, if you actually think that Barker's opinions carry greater weight than the Holy Spirit, then it seems like you missed the point.

According to 2 Timothy 3, YHVH breathed his word into the lives of all those men who documented their experiences with YHVH.
In over 1200 locations in the bible the phrase- Thus says the Lord-

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

"Thus" AND "say*" AND "the" AND "LORD" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

"Thus" AND "say*" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

We then read in John 16:13-15 that Jesus is sending his followers the Holy Spirit to teach, instruct, guide, and direct us into all that the Father has given to Jesus.

Joh 16:13-15 WEB 13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.

That said, I'm not opposed to reading the thoughts of others. But those ideas don't take precedence over the clear teaching of the bible.

Therefore,
* I do NOT worship Barker,
* my opinions and opinions of scholars (eg Barker) are supported by numerous references in extant writings of preChristian Jews,
* I DO know what is written in the Bible
* YHWH did not write the Bible with a pen in hand,
* the Bible was written for "instruction'" per Paul, rather than for historical or literal meaning. Allegory has been a literary technique since Men began writing myths on clay tablets five thousand years ago and that is how Paul interprets the Bible (Galatians 4:24)
* you are welcome to believe whatever you want, but others may choose NOT to follow your lead.

Pity
My experiences are based on experiences with YHVH, through Jesus Christ and reading the bible for itself, not what others think about it.

It's similar to the idea of reading letters from my wife, before my wife and I were married, after having spent years together, but ignoring my wife whom I've been married to for the past few decades.

Also, like reading the opinions of others who don't actually know my wife, but use their own ideas to explain her.

 

[SteveB]

"“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world...I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:36)

How can Jesus rule this material world when he explicitly says this material world is "not" the kingdom he rules? His statement implies that he rules another world that will subsume this one at some future point. Right, he inherits everything at some point but NOT at the present time or place of existence? He came to tell us, "I got this, but you have to be patient. I will come again to carry you across that threshold."

Stick around.
You'll find out.

 

[docphin5]

Why is it unclear to you?

Can you not follow the conversation?

You claimed all the cosmos, so now you see your claim was way too broad.

I claimed he has power over the MATERIAL cosmos. Review my posts and I am consistent on that. If you don’t believe me then try not to die. Try to keep your physical body for yourself. You cannot because He has already claimed your body for himself. Whereas, what he has no power over is our will, IOW, who we choose to be, how we choose to live, what we choose to believe. It is why he sows misinformation and denies us Wisdom. But we can choose to heed that inner moral consciousness (“spirit of Jesus”) and be freed from condemnation, freed from error and ignorance, although it is a personal labor. “Seek and you shall find”, right? Consequently, a soul surrendered to unchallenged truth or spirit is “married” to the Savior who saves us from the inevitable material death through the knowledge of God now and bodily resurrection later in the new creation. “I am the way, the truth, and the life”, says Jesus.

Satan does not control you (believers) nor tornadoes. In fact we can only assume if he wants to do something to anyone who trusts in the Lord he may very well need to ask permission.

Nope. The flesh has a blind will all its own irrespective of what we want ourselves. Read Romans 7:15-18, “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh.“ It is where the passions, irrational thoughts, and vices originate (Gal 5:19). Without the regulating power of the inner moral consciousness we humans would be living according to the law of the jungle. That sometimes happens anyways despite our best efforts.

I've reached the end of the line with you.

I'll leave you with the last word, and probably other things you will claim about me.

I dont recall claiming anything about you personally. My comments pertain to human nature in general as part of an ongoing cosmic process.

 

[Vladimir]

It is to these souls being rescued that God has made himself known as the absolute Good One both willing and able to make himself known.

God has not himself known to anyone. When I was a Christian, I used to think that I "know" God, but this knowledge was based on reading the Bible.

You know God doesn't make himself known because Christians, or God followers, those who claim to have a personal relationship with God, don't really know anything about this God that have not read in a Bible.

In addition, when I was a Christian, I was a member of the board of elders in my Baptist church. I remember there were very sharp disagreements on issues, even though each of us prayed for God's guidance. And I remember being perplexed by this, because some people felt that God is leading them to think that church needs to do X, whereas others felt God was leading to NOT do X. And some of these are church dividing subjects that cause people to split or leave the church. Doesn't God have a clear plan for a church?

So, it is my contention that God, if he exists, simply doesn't care what people think of him or what people believe in him. This God has not provided a reliable way for people to know him. Each religion has followers who are convinced they are right. Their God is the only true God. And there is no reliable way to point them to a true God.