Does God Want Everyone to Know Him?

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
my evidence is existence of Christian sects who believe the New Testament is Gods word but who don’t accept the Trinity or Jesus’s divinity. If you refuse to accept such believers exist, then you are welcome to your belief. You want verses? Go ahead and ask Christadelphians or Jehovahs witnesses.

YOU made the claim that the Bible has contradictory verses about Jesus. TWICE now I have asked you to supply at least one verse about Jesus that contradicts another verse. TWICE now you have failed. I assume you just made it up. I'm not going to ask you a third time. This time my question has changed:

Why did you make it up?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Nobody adheres to all of the Bible, as it's impossible and impractical.
Based on what?
According to Romans 8:4-8, the only way it's possible to keep God's Law, perfectly, is to focus our thinking on spiritual things. Romans 13:8-10, we read that by loving our neighbor, we will keep the law.
Even Jesus said that the entirety of the law and prophets are fulfilled in the two commandments--- Love God with all our heart, soul and mind, and love our neighbors as ourselves. Matthew 22:36-40.
So.... perhaps the problem here is that you simply weren't paying attention, or stopped reading and praying somewhere along the way?
It's actually easier than many people realize.

Every Bible sect and religions picks and chooses what they want/feel like following.
So, it's not possible to actually learn what IS and IS NOT to be adhered to?


But that's not my main point. The Bible followers, as a whole, all come to different conclusion about salvation, nature of Christ, etc... based on the Bible. Yes, these people may be sub-divided into different groups (Baptists, Catholics, etc..) that agree with one another in their own group about how they interpret the Bible, but if you take a Birds Eye view, you'll see there are many such groups with contradicting views among themselves.
Ever read the parable of the mustard seed that grows into a large tree, and all manner of different birds come to find rest under its shade?

The Parable of the Mustard Seed​
Then He said, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it?​
“It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.”​

Then, have you ever read the seven letters to the seven churches in the book- Revelation? Chapters two and three.

Each of these different churches experienced different issues, and faced different rebukes from Jesus.

While I get your complaint, it's an old one, which was answered in these two sets of passages.
1- Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a large tree that all different kinds of birds will take refuge in.
Apparently, he is already aware of these different groups, and will handle them accordingly. He clearly had no problem with the sheer level of diversity in his Kingdom.
2- The fact that he only limited his rebuke and encouragement to 7 specific churches, knowing that it'd be distributed throughout the whole world's people, shows that he's not particularly bothered with such diversity.

We then have what Peter tells us in 1 Peter 4.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now​
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

This is something you need to pay very close attention to.
God's Judgment--- it starts at his own people.
Even Paul alludes to this in his letter to Timothy.

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.​
Don't think that he's not aware of the issues you refer to. Furthermore, note Peter's statement where he says--- What will be the end of those who don't obey the gospel of God?
If the righteous are scarcely saved-- where will the ungodly and sinner appear?
So... if you want to use different denominational constructs, and their failings to justify your unbelief--- you are deliberately screwing yourself.

Each and every single human being--- "christians" included--- will answer to God.
The only difference will be-- we will have submitted our lives to Jesus, and received his forgiveness and cleansing of our sin.

Do you really think that standing before a judge without a defense attorney is a good idea when you actually are guilty, because all the others in court are as guilty as you, but have chosen a defense attorney?

God has actually given us a defense attorney. His name is Jesus.

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

Don't think you're going to get away with anything. Nobody is. God's record keeping capabilities far exceeds even the best record keeping faculties of the entire human race, combined.
Every single thought, word, action, lack of action, etc..... is recorded, and will be played back to us on the day we stand before God to answer for our lives.
Those who trust in Jesus will have Jesus standing with them, and he will say--- Father, this one is mine. They trusted me.
The stamp posted on their record will be in blood red--- Paid in Full!

So.... please.... don't destroy yourself because of the failures of others.


And yet, there are misundersandings, among these Christian groups as to who that Jesus is.
Yep. Nobody, except Jesus, kept the Law, 100%. NOBODY.....
Here's something for you to consider....

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​

Look very closely at these two sentences. What do they say? #16 shows up at every football game. Someone, somewhere in the stands, drapes a banner over the rail, and it's there for everyone to see. One player in particular apparently tattooed John 3:16 on his eyelids.

Now, according to another passage we read--
[Pro 17:9 NKJV] 9 He who covers a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates friends.​
In another we read
[Jer 31:3 NKJV] 3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, [saying]: "Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.​
In yet another we read
[1Jo 4:10 NKJV] 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.​
In still another we read
[Psa 32:1-6 NKJV] 1 [A Psalm] of David. A Contemplation. Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [Whose] sin [is] covered. 2 Blessed [is] the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit [there is] no deceit. 3 When I kept silent, my bones grew old Through my groaning all the day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah 6 For this cause everyone who is godly shall pray to You In a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters They shall not come near him.​
These are scattered throughout the entire bible.

Jesus paid the price to save us from our sin, and the penalty due our sin. Are you really going to send yourself to an eternity of misery, agony and anguish because other people don't do it the way you think it should be done?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How does one know if they believe in the right Jesus or "another" Jesus, as Paul warned in 2 Cor. 11:4? If you are a Trinitarian, you will have a Jesus that's different from a Christadelphian or Jehovah Witness' Jesus.
Indeed?
What does Jesus say in John 16:13-15?
Perhaps the problem here isn't that people have different opinions. But that they're not actually listening to Jesus?

[Jhn 16:13-15 NKJV] 13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare [it] to you. 15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare [it] to you.​

It's long been said that if more people read the bible for themselves, and let the bible tell them what the bible says, and not what commentators tell us what the bible said, there'd be fewer denominational differences, and fewer cults.

Why did the JW's come into being? Was it because people were reading the bible, or because one man convinced his followers to listen to him, and those who agreed with him?
Why did the Christadelphians, LDS, Marcionites, etc..... all come into existence?
Was it because they read the bible for themselves, or allowed one person to convince their followers to listen to them, and let them tell those followers what the bible said?

It's a curious thing that so many people are afraid of reading the bible for themselves, when Jesus said that His Spirit would teach, and guide us into all truth, and give us what God, his Father, gave to him.


You could argue among yourselves until you are blue in the face and you won't be able to convince each other than you are right. Because no matter what your view of Jesus is, there is a Bible verse that could be used to contradict it or to support it.
Which is why reading the bible for ourselves, seeking God with a whole heart, and his righteousness is so important.

Something that I've long found curious in my studies in the bible...... In the young Kingdom of Israel, following their entrance into the Promised Land, God had told them--- if they adhered to his Laws, and his ways, they would be the freest, and most prosperous nation on earth, and would have all his blessings, and all his protection. In essence, God would be King, and they would live as free men and women.
We further read in Galatians 5, that by walking in the Spirit, we who follow Jesus would live a life, wherein no law could be made to enslave them.
We further read in John 8, that if we keep Jesus' teachings, we would know the truth, and the truth would set us free.

Biblical Christianity is a form of "religion" which is based on being in subjection to God, and free from tyranny.
So, why would we be arguing, if we're all in agreement with YHVH?

The argument arises from ego, and ignorance of God's Kingdom, and Law.
As James, Jesus' half-brother, warns us---

[Jas 4:1-10 NKJV] 1 Where do wars and fights [come] from among you? Do [they] not [come] from your [desires for] pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend [it] on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [you] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [you] double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and [your] joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.​

Rather curious how that works..... Denominations, cults, etc.... all arise because people want control, ego-satisfaction, and refuse to let others follow God/Jesus, on God's terms. It has to be their own terms.
 

Vladimir

Member
It's actually easier than many people realize.
So, Luke 14:33 wasn't meant to be literal? Why did the rich young ruler walk away sad, after Jesus told him to give up everything he had and to sell and give to the poor? He could have just loved his neighbor and kept his riches. After all, American Christians don't have to give up anything.

Jesus also taught that one should "give to everyone who asks of you" (Luke 6:30). Surely that's another suggestion. No follower of Jesus is required to give up anything at all.

Luke 6:24 says that "woe to you who are rich", again, Jesus was using hyperbole, since being wealthy is not a sin. Amazing how easy it is to follow Jesus when you can just create your own interpretation while claiming to be his follower.
Perhaps the problem here isn't that people have different opinions. But that they're not actually listening to Jesus?
There is irony in this question.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So, Luke 14:33 wasn't meant to be literal?
Luk 14:33 WEB So therefore, whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has,
he can’t be my disciple.
Oh, it applies.
Why? Are you afraid of having to do this?
Don't you think that you're worth more than all the wealth, power, and fame this world has to offer you?
Jesus sure thought you were.
He died to save you.
Why did the rich young ruler walk away sad, after Jesus told him to give up everything he had and to sell and give to the poor?
He had a faulty worldview.
Mat 16:26 WEB For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?
He could have just loved his neighbor and kept his riches. After all, American Christians don't have to give up anything.
Oh by all means...
Please show me where Jesus said that.
I'd be careful if I were you.
God has something to say about people who reject the truth and then use it to hide behind.

Psa 50:16-22 WEB 16 But to the wicked God says, “What right do you have to declare my statutes, that you have taken my covenant on your lips, 17 since you hate instruction, and throw my words behind you? 18 When you saw a thief, you consented with him, and have participated with adulterers. 19 “You give your mouth to evil. Your tongue frames deceit. 20 You sit and speak against your brother. You slander your own mother’s son. 21 You have done these things, and I kept silent. You thought that I was just like you. I will rebuke you, and accuse you in front of your eyes. 22 “Now consider this, you who forget God, lest I tear you into pieces, and there be no one to deliver.

Jesus also taught that one should "give to everyone who asks of you" (Luke 6:30). Surely that's another suggestion. No follower of Jesus is required to give up anything at all.
What are you giving up, that you are justified?
Apparently you missed what Paul said about this.
1Co 13:3 WEB If I give away all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but don’t have love, it profits me nothing.

How do you know that you are filled with Love?

Luke 6:24 says that "woe to you who are rich", again, Jesus was using hyperbole, since being wealthy is not a sin. Amazing how easy it is to follow Jesus when you can just create your own interpretation while claiming to be his follower.
Which raises yet another question....
What are you doing about it?
Is your perspective really worth losing your soul over?

There is irony in this question.
And?
Is that your way of justifying your refusal to answer questions?
 

Vladimir

Member
Luk 14:33 WEB So therefore, whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has,
he can’t be my disciple.
Oh, it applies.
Why? Are you afraid of having to do this?
Don't you think that you're worth more than all the wealth, power, and fame this world has to offer you?
Jesus sure thought you were.
He died to save you.
have you given up all your possessions?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
have you given up all your possessions?
I did.
Why, are you afraid to? Do you think that what you can collect in this world will save you to the next?

You apparently never read what Jesus said about this.

Mat 16:25 WEBFor whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it.

Mar 8:35 WEBFor whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it.

Luk 9:24 WEBFor whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake will save it.

Luk 17:33 WEBWhoever seeks to save his life loses it, but whoever loses his life preserves it.

Joh 12:25 WEBHe who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life.

There's no ambiguity here in what he says.

If you try to save your life, you will lose it.

But if you give up your life for Jesus, you will keep it to eternity.

Paul describes this in his letter to Timothy.

2Ti 1:12 WEB For this cause I also suffer these things. Yet I am not ashamed, for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed to him against that day.

He further describes the nature of God's encouragement to us to keep going in the midst of hardships.

Rom 8:16-23 WEB 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. 19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. 23 Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body.

2Co 4:16-18 WEB 16 Therefore we don’t faint, but though our outward person is decaying, yet our inward person is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is for the moment, works for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory, 18 while we don’t look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

It's a simple matter of God's investment in us, and his valuation of us.

We have been convinced that what we can achieve is better than anything God wants to give us. He however knows exactly what we need and want, so his perspective is infinitely better.

As imaged in this picture.

So.... what are you afraid of?
 

e v e 21

Well-known member
If I say, “YES”, then that makes God (1) either unwilling or unable to make himself known because some do not know him. I hear atheists default to that position a lot.

Therefore, is God either unwilling or unable to make himself known?

If unable then arguably he is unworthy of belief. If unwilling then it is unjust for him to condemn us for not believing. These are the facts of the matter.

But what if there is an answer to the OP’s question, albeit, requiring a bit of sophistication, without forcing us to choose between either an unworthy God or an unjust God? (Warning: If sophistication or critical thinking is not your thing then you can stop reading here.)

WHAT IF (I am speculating here) the state of creation (ie., the current universe or cosmos) is separated from God, NOT due to anything we have done but due to something that happened on a cosmic scale way before our time? A “Something” that may be referred to as the “cosmic sin” if we are to seek its corollary in scripture (eg., John 1:29). (At least indulge me that). A perturbation of the universal existence resulting in the Big Bang, and consequently a material cosmos that was lifeless and chaotic.

In that scenario we would ALL be born into a material world separated from God. Therefore, individuals who never believe in a divine entity remain separated from God NOT necessarily due to your choice but due to something, the cosmic sin, that preceded you. You have been “blinded” from perceiving God by the same “something” that caused a perturbation of the universal existence.

Therefore, if you never believe in an absolute Good God then you remain a part of the lifeless and chaotic cosmos due to the “cosmic sin”. Your current state REMAINS that of the material cosmos. IOW, nothing changes for you. You cannot claim God is unjust because the cosmos already paid the price for sin and you merely remain a part of that judgment for not believing.

Whereas, those who believe in and submit to the absolute Good One are being rescued from a material cosmos separated from God, —not physically rescued, but their souls are being rescued, “set apart”, for the intelligible world perceived in the future, when matter has been returned to God and made new, as it was, “in the Beginning.” It is to these souls being rescued that God has made himself known as the absolute Good One both willing and able to make himself known.

In this way ^^^^^^^^ God rescues those returning to him from a cosmic sin that separated our world from him. Unbelief is ultimately the result of something that happened way before our time that continues to ripple across space and time, but not forever.

For the sake of brevity I will end here.

——
1) For the sake of argument “God” is defined as the Most High God, namely, Elyon, an absolute Good Source of everything and therefore is itself pre-existent.
the sin is that the sons of ammon of the evil realm imprisoned
eden souls on this earth as blackmail against God.
Evil was done.. by an evil realm and it wasnt some neutral effect you call 'cosmic sin'
and the evil did cause cosmological effects...
and its kept going by rituals and every ugly thing you can imagine , against God's souls...
: (

the absolute Good as you call it is their Dead End trick against God's souls...
to keep this prison going and never His sons to return to God's realm eden
and yes they have a heaven and so on (satanic principalities), and their fake pantheon of gods,
as described in plato , hieroglyphs and rg veda
and their type of entities are the locusts of rev....
demons.

this cosmos IS sin nature..
a MIMIC realm...

God will desolate it soon,
...as He says in prophets chapters
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
the sin is that the sons of ammon of the evil realm imprisoned
eden souls on this earth as blackmail against God.
Evil was done.. by an evil realm and it wasnt some neutral effect you call 'cosmic sin'
and the evil did cause cosmological effects...
and its kept going by those they imprisoned and keep hostage...
: (

the absolute Good as you call it is their Dead End trick against God's souls...
to keep this prison going and never His sons to return to God's realm eden
and yes they have a heaven and so on (satanic principalities), and their fake pantheon of gods,
as described in plato , hieroglyphs and rg veda
and their type of entities are the locusts of rev....
demons.

this cosmos IS sin nature..
a MIMIC realm...

God will desolate it soon,
...as He says in prophets chapters
You are all over the place and make little to no sense. Unless you can provide a coherent explanation then your wasting your time. For example, nobody knows who the “sons of ammon” are or what that has to do with reality.
 

e v e 21

Well-known member
You are all over the place and make little to no sense. Unless you can provide a coherent explanation then your wasting your time. For example, nobody knows who the “sons of ammon” are or what that has to do with reality.
look up sons of ammon in scripture. it's there.
 

e v e 21

Well-known member
everything i wrote is recorded in ancient texts.
not that anyone wants to bother to inquire within them to find out.
and what I wrote is perfectly coherent.

it's your own job to go and understand.
 

e v e 21

Well-known member
I could but I am too lazy to do so. Therefore, unless you are unwilling to try and demonstrate some logical point to be made then why should I do it for you?
if you are too lazy then...
what can I say.

you don't do it for me.
I did the studying and learned it..
and it took years.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
everything i wrote is recorded in ancient texts.
not that anyone wants to bother to inquire within them to find out.
and what I wrote is perfectly coherent.

it's your own job to go and understand.
If no one knows what you are talking about and you provide no references then how is anyone supposed to go and check it out? Do you see the flaw in your approach here?
 

e v e 21

Well-known member
If no one knows what you are talking about and you provide no references then how is anyone supposed to go and check it out? Do you see the flaw in your approach here?
even if I provided references, that would not solve the problem.
because many hours of study would still be required of you...

as you know these forums are full of quote walls and tit for tat references.
which does no good.

and I did not understand alone, I met a brilliant scholar and researcher
and we have spent years translating texts together...
from rg veda to hieroglyphs...to scripture
..and we did what you suggested... giving quotes and logical explanations..

what I learned is that people have pre-established beliefs..
and no pages and pages of quotes or proofs
do anything to overcome that
 

docphin5

Well-known member
even if I provided references, that would not solve the problem.
because many hours of study would still be required of you...

as you know these forums are full of quote walls and tit for tat references.
which does no good.

and I did not understand alone, I met a brilliant scholar and researcher
and we have spent years translating texts together...
from rg veda to hieroglyphs...to scripture
..and we did what you suggested... giving quotes and logical explanations..

what I learned is that people have pre-established beliefs..
and no pages and pages of quotes or proofs
do anything to overcome that
You should still provide references because if there is an interest then someone could potentially check it out. Otherwise you are asking everyone to take your opinion as fact, which is worse than all the people you just criticized for quoting too much. I frequently follow up references that hold a unique point of view. I actively look for opposing or unique perspectives in order to compare with what I already know.
 

e v e 21

Well-known member
You should still provide references because if there is an interest then someone could potentially check it out. Otherwise you are asking everyone to take your opinion as fact, which is worse than all the people you just criticized for quoting too much. I frequently follow up references that hold a unique point of view. I actively look for opposing or unique perspectives in order to compare with what I already know.
i never asked anyone to take anything i say as fact...

its not unwillingness to give references..
but simply that giving references is not talking to someone
to their soul... back and forth...
 
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