Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?

brightfame52

Well-known member
The answer is given in these verses:

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


These verses tell you what it means to “have done good”.
Those are about good works. You believe in Salvation by good works. That is a false gospel.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Those are about good works. You believe in Salvation by good works. That is a false gospel.
You are contradicting Jesus, not me. Are you so committed to your abominable, Satanic heresy that you are willing to defy the unmistakable words of Jesus in order to defend it?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are contradicting Jesus, not me. Are you so committed to your abominable, Satanic heresy that you are willing to defy the unmistakable words of Jesus in order to defend it?
Salvation is by Grace and not of works. Also Titus 3:5

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Salvation is by Grace and not of works. Also Titus 3:5

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Go and tell that to Jesus, not me. I didn’t say what is in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus did. So why is that my problem?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The real issue there is not whether God is "sovereign" or not, but whether your definition of "sovereignty" is correct or not. I don't think that any true believer in God would deny that God is "sovereign" over his creation. The dispute arises over how you want to define the "sovereignty" of God. Does God have to meticulously micromanage in minute detail every event that happens in his creation for him to be "sovereign" over it; or can he grant libertarian freewill to his creatures, while still remaining "sovereign" over his creation at the same time? Calvinism says no. The Bible says yes.

I had a quick look, but I didn't bother to read it to be honest, because the exchanges are contrived, and are based on the faulty premise stated above.
“Since you have yet to demonstrate any actual grasp of Calvinistic thought or doctrine, I doubt that you are able to lay your finger on “the real mistake of Calvinists.” There is not a whit of Calvistic doctrine that elevates God’s sovereignty over His holiness. In fact, His sovereignty is sustained by His holiness.

Please do not pretend to define what we believe when you cannot represent us fairly or even-handedly. Do not pretend to tell us where we’ve failed when you have reduced our entire body of divinity to name-calling. And if you insist on limiting God’s sovereignty — so that He is not “micromanaging” His creation — then you must be prepared to explain, biblically, where the perimeters are. Where does His control start and stop. In what circumstances is He active and in what circumstances is He passive? Be exact. Be specific.
Or, be quiet.


Since you’ve expressed knowledge of God’s purpose in creation, please explain that purpose, with adequate chapter and verse, and explain how it precludes absolute sovereignty.
Or, be quiet.

Finally, since you have demonstrated an alarming lack of knowledge concerning Calvinism overall, I would suggest refraining from any further discussions of this type until you have spent some serious time in study.

Here’s why:

I don’t know anything about heart surgery. But, I know enough to know that I don’t know anything about heart surgery. So, if I were to confront a heart surgeon and start offering my opinions and criticisms, he would instantly recognize that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’d come across as little more than a verbose fool.

No Calvinist will ever be affected by your current line of argumentation. Most won’t take the time I’ve taken to reply. They will recognize instantly that they are dealing with someone who is ill-informed and relying on emotion rather than intelligent, educated information. You’re not doing yourself, or the cause of Christ, any favors when you attack our position ignorantly.

I hope that your future interactions with the Christian community will be more productive.” - Jim
 

zerinus

Well-known member
“Since you have yet to demonstrate any actual grasp of Calvinistic thought or doctrine, I doubt that you are able to lay your finger on “the real mistake of Calvinists.” There is not a whit of Calvistic doctrine that elevates God’s sovereignty over His holiness. In fact, His sovereignty is sustained by His holiness.

Please do not pretend to define what we believe when you cannot represent us fairly or even-handedly. Do not pretend to tell us where we’ve failed when you have reduced our entire body of divinity to name-calling. And if you insist on limiting God’s sovereignty — so that He is not “micromanaging” His creation — then you must be prepared to explain, biblically, where the perimeters are. Where does His control start and stop. In what circumstances is He active and in what circumstances is He passive? Be exact. Be specific.
Or, be quiet.


Since you’ve expressed knowledge of God’s purpose in creation, please explain that purpose, with adequate chapter and verse, and explain how it precludes absolute sovereignty.
Or, be quiet.

Finally, since you have demonstrated an alarming lack of knowledge concerning Calvinism overall, I would suggest refraining from any further discussions of this type until you have spent some serious time in study.

Here’s why:

I don’t know anything about heart surgery. But, I know enough to know that I don’t know anything about heart surgery. So, if I were to confront a heart surgeon and start offering my opinions and criticisms, he would instantly recognize that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’d come across as little more than a verbose fool.

No Calvinist will ever be affected by your current line of argumentation. Most won’t take the time I’ve taken to reply. They will recognize instantly that they are dealing with someone who is ill-informed and relying on emotion rather than intelligent, educated information. You’re not doing yourself, or the cause of Christ, any favors when you attack our position ignorantly.

I hope that your future interactions with the Christian community will be more productive.” - Jim
You are talking a lot of meaningless nonsense which is not making sense to anybody. And who the heck is Jim? Am I talking to you or Jim? Do you have a mind of your own, can you think for yourself, or do you need someone like Jim to come and do your thinking for you?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are talking a lot of meaningless nonsense which is not making sense to anybody. And who the heck is Jim? Am I talking to you or Jim? Do you have a mind of your own, can you think for yourself, or do you need someone like Jim to come and do your thinking for you?
The poster made good sense in my opinion. And obviously Jim is his name.
 
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TomFL

Guest
The poster made good sense in my opinion. And obviously Jim is his name.
In the movie Enter the Dragon One fighter O'hara breaks a board with his bare fist
and Bruce Lee responds boards don't hit back

Jim don't do rebuttal
 

Septextura

Well-known member
I have analogy for explaining Divine Sovereignty to non-Reformed Christians.

God is an Absolute Monarch. Can an Absolute Monarch do anything wrong in his kingdom? Of course not. Whatever he wills and decrees becomes law unto others. Whatever he pleases is good and what he despises is wicked. He institutes laws for the behavior of his subjects but is never bound by them. He is the law giver.

Sin by definition is transgression against God's will and the law given to man. Can God transgress against himself? Of course not.

Does God making David go against His prescribed will by numbering Israel make God a sinner or evil doer? No. His will is righteousness and all His decrees always good. It was God's decreed will for David to sin at that time, and as Satan tempted him, it was David who did the sinning, unaware that God's decreed will was being fulfilled. Same thing happened in Eden. God's prescribed will to His creation (But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it) doesn't have to be the same with his eternal decrees from absolute will (ordaining the fall too happen using secondary causes).

Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God creating evil doesn't make Him evil. God is not equivalent to His creation like in pantheism.

God with longsuffering will make man to sin against His prescribed will in order to show him mercy. Why? Because it glorifies God in His creation. We meant it for evil but God meant it for good.

Q. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.
- Westminster Shorter Catechism
 
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TomFL

Guest
I have analogy for explaining Divine Sovereignty to non-Reformed Christians.

God is an Absolute Monarch. Can an Absolute Monarch do anything wrong in his kingdom? Of course not. Whatever he wills and decrees becomes law unto others. Whatever he pleases is good and what he despises is wicked. He institutes laws for the behavior of his subjects but is never bound by them. He is the law giver.

Sin by definition is transgression against God's will and the law given to man. Can God transgress against himself? Of course not.

Does God making David go against His prescribed will by numbering Israel make God a sinner or evil doer? No. His will is righteousness and all His decrees always good. It was God's decreed will for David to sin at that time, and as Satan tempted him, it was David who did the sinning, unaware that God's decreed will was being fulfilled. Same thing happened in Eden. God's prescribed will to His creation (But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it) doesn't have to be the same with his eternal decrees from absolute will (ordaining the fall too happen using secondary causes).





God creating evil doesn't make Him evil. God is not equivalent to His creation like in pantheism.

God with longsuffering will make man to sin against His prescribed will in order to show him mercy. Why? Because it glorifies God in His creation. We meant it for evil but God meant it for good.

Q. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.
- Westminster Shorter Catechism
Soveignty just means the right to rule as king

It does not require the meticulous determination of all things

When man sins he sins because he chose to. God does not determine that

God's holiness means he is separatre from sin.

If you make God the determiner of mans sin you impact his holiness
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Soveignty just means the right to rule as king

It does not require the meticulous determination of all things

When man sins he sins because he chose to. God does not determine that

God's holiness means he is separatre from sin.

If you make God the determiner of mans sin you impact his holiness

God's holiness cannot be impacted by what man does or doesn't do. Of course God is separate from sin. What is sin? Disobedience against God. By commanding man what to and not to do, God automatically makes man capable of sinning (disobeying). Can a country have criminals without a legal system? If no commandments are given, we can't break any. This is why the law is good but it yields death. This is why we need GRACE!

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

If God ordained all this, then why are we to blame?

Romans 9
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Can Flowers Leighton resist God's will? Can Tom? Can I? Can the fish resist the dragnet?
 
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TomFL

Guest
God's holiness cannot be impacted by what man does or doesn't do. Of course God is separate from sin. What is sin? Disobedience against God. By commanding man what to and not to do, God automatically makes man capable of sinning (disobeying). Can a country have criminals without a legal system? If no commandments are given, we can't break any. This is why the law is good but it yields death. This is why we need GRACE!


True because God is not the causeof man's sin
Romans 9
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

You miss the point of the passage which concerns Israel. God was using Israel for the ignoble purpose of effecting the crucifixion

God did so because of their own hardness of heart and confirmed them in that position

The Jew will object why does God find fault but God had judicially hardened them because of their own unbelief

and not because of an unconditional decree of reprobation from birth as seen below

Rom. 11:19–23 —KJV
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”

This is not a passage about a non calvinist arguing with God about an unconditional decree of reprobation

and to make it so removes text from its contextand leads to wrong conclusions

Can Flowers Leighton resist God's will? Can Tom? Can I? Can the fish resist the dragnet?
No one can but there is nothing in the passge about an unconditional election to salvation or reprobation

that idea must be read into the passage
 
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TomFL

Guest
How about this one? You understand how causation works?
What about it ?

Does it state God is the cause of all of man's sin ?

Over in Chronicles


1 Chr. 21:1 —ESV
“¶ Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.”


and David confessed his sin

2 Sam. 24:10 —KJV
“¶ And David’s heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.”
 
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TomFL

Guest
You've moved the goalpost. So you do agree God causes at least some of man's sins and it doesn't affect His holiness, righteousness and goodness one bit?
I have moved no goalposts

I have always stated God is not the cause of all of man's sin

and no I do not agree.

he does use sinful intensions at times to accomplish his purpose but that is not the same as causing their sins

and he does allow temptation at times for various purposes and hardens men in a rebellious condition but again that is not the same as causing all of mans sins

Other than that you ignored the parallel text I posted
 

Septextura

Well-known member
I have moved no goalposts

I have always stated God is not the cause of all of man's sin

and no I do not agree.

he does use sinful intensions at times to accomplish his purpose but that is not the same as causing their sins

and he does allow temptation at times for various purposes and hardens men in a rebellious condition but again that is not the same as causing all of mans sins

Other than that you ignored the parallel text I posted

At least you have zeal, Tom. I'll give you that.
 
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