Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?

preacher4truth

Well-known member
You ignored the fact that evil was determined by God before man was ever created

as well the fact Calvinism teaches man was determined by God to hate him, be unable to understand the gospel,

obey the law or respond positively to God. What you call natural darkness is that which was decreed by God

You are simply ignoring the necessary ramifications of what divine meticulous determination entails

and are inconsistent

and contrary tro your claims there are Calvinists who admot as much

John Calvin himself taught:
“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin,Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

Did he misunderstand Calvinism

or how about

From the website of Dr James Anderson Analogical Thoughts




Divine Determinism


Divine determinism, broadly defined, is the doctrine that everything is determined by God. So defined, divine determinism isn’t committed to any particular account of how God determines everything, only that he does do so. Divine determinism doesn’t entail logical determinism, physical determinism, or causal determinism. It is conceptually distinct from all the types previously discussed.

I think it’s beyond reasonable dispute that Calvinism is committed to divine determinism, since historic Calvinism teaches that God actively foreordains all things; for every event E, God wills that E occurs, and God’s willing that E occurs is a sufficient condition for E’s occurrence

John Piper Audio transcript
How do we know that God
always
controls
everything
? My answer is that we know this because the Bible

or this from the desiring God website

Yet this is not to say that God does not create, send, permit, or even move others to do evil, for Scripture is clear that nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. Thus, when the writer of Hebrews states that Christ “upholds the universe by the word of his power” (1:3), he is claiming that God the Son is providentially governing everything through sustaining all of the universe’s objects and events as he carries each of them to its appointed end by his all-powerful word. This follows from the fact that the Greek word for “upholds” is pherø, which means to bring or bear or produce or carry.

As Wayne Grudem notes, pherø “is commonly used in the New Testament for carrying something from one place to another, such as bringing a paralyzed man on a bed to Jesus (Luke 5:18), bringing wine to the steward of the feast (John 2:8), or bringing a cloak and books to Paul (2 Timothy 4:13).” Consequently, in our verse’s context it “does not mean simply ‘sustain,’ but has the sense of active, purposeful control over the thing being carried from one place to another,” especially since pherø appears in our verse as a present participle, which “indicates that Jesus is ‘continually carrying along all things’ in the universe by his word of power” (Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine [Zondervan, 1994], 316). So here is the picture: God the Son holds each and every aspect of creation, including all of its evil aspects, in his “hands” — that is, within his all- powerful and ever-effectual word — and carries it by that word to where it accomplishes exactly what he wants it to do.

Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child:
Romans 9:20-21 on display ^^^
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You make it sound like God has a hard time doing his job, it is so "meticulous." Perhaps you should upgrade your God to a more capable being?
Not at all

It takes far more ability for God to accomplish his will working with men and events he does not meticulously determine than with men and event which are not meticulously determined

The free will God is a bigger God than a God who has to control everything to get his way
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Not at all

It takes far more ability for God to accomplish his will working with men and events he does not meticulously determine than with men and event which are not meticulously determined

The free will God is a bigger God than a God who has to control everything to get his way
Omnipotence doesn't face over-exertion just because you don't see God as fair and have to remake him in your own thoughts and according to what you deem fair.

Guess what?

God owns both sides of the "chessboard" and He does as He wills, is Sovereign over all, including permitting the fall, evil, chaos, sin.

In the meantime, not understanding properly the nature of God or man, you spend an exorbitant amount of time trying to get God off the hook.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Romans 9:20-21 on display ^^^
That is just a passage you misunderstand

Paul is not speaking of a discussion between a Calvinist and a non Calvinist

but a hardened Jew who was being used for the purpose of the crucifixion and argues if God's will to use the Jew for his purpose why is being judged
 
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TomFL

Guest
Omnipotence doesn't face over-exertion just because you don't see God as fair and have to remake him in your own thoughts and what you deem fair.

Guess what?

God owns both sides of the "chessboard" and He does as He wills, is Sovereign over all, including permitting the fall, evil, chaos, sin.

In the meantime, not understanding properly the nature of God or man, you spend an exorbitant amount of time trying to get God off the hook.
No one but you mentioned omnipotence

as for your chessboard analogy it serves well to illustrate what I was talking about

What is more impressive the chess master who moves the pieces on both sides of the board

so that he can win

or the chess master who takes on all comers and yet still always wins

The free will God is the bigger God

he does not need to meticulously determine all things to get his way
 

Sketo

Well-known member
You ignored the fact that evil was determined by God before man was ever created

as well the fact Calvinism teaches man was determined by God to hate him, be unable to understand the gospel,

obey the law or respond positively to God. What you call natural darkness is that which was decreed by God

You are simply ignoring the necessary ramifications of what divine meticulous determination entails

and are inconsistent

and contrary tro your claims there are Calvinists who admot as much

John Calvin himself taught:
“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin,Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

Did he misunderstand Calvinism

or how about

From the website of Dr James Anderson Analogical Thoughts




Divine Determinism


Divine determinism, broadly defined, is the doctrine that everything is determined by God. So defined, divine determinism isn’t committed to any particular account of how God determines everything, only that he does do so. Divine determinism doesn’t entail logical determinism, physical determinism, or causal determinism. It is conceptually distinct from all the types previously discussed.

I think it’s beyond reasonable dispute that Calvinism is committed to divine determinism, since historic Calvinism teaches that God actively foreordains all things; for every event E, God wills that E occurs, and God’s willing that E occurs is a sufficient condition for E’s occurrence

John Piper Audio transcript
How do we know that God
always
controls
everything
? My answer is that we know this because the Bible

or this from the desiring God website

Yet this is not to say that God does not create, send, permit, or even move others to do evil, for Scripture is clear that nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. Thus, when the writer of Hebrews states that Christ “upholds the universe by the word of his power” (1:3), he is claiming that God the Son is providentially governing everything through sustaining all of the universe’s objects and events as he carries each of them to its appointed end by his all-powerful word. This follows from the fact that the Greek word for “upholds” is pherø, which means to bring or bear or produce or carry.

As Wayne Grudem notes, pherø “is commonly used in the New Testament for carrying something from one place to another, such as bringing a paralyzed man on a bed to Jesus (Luke 5:18), bringing wine to the steward of the feast (John 2:8), or bringing a cloak and books to Paul (2 Timothy 4:13).” Consequently, in our verse’s context it “does not mean simply ‘sustain,’ but has the sense of active, purposeful control over the thing being carried from one place to another,” especially since pherø appears in our verse as a present participle, which “indicates that Jesus is ‘continually carrying along all things’ in the universe by his word of power” (Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine [Zondervan, 1994], 316). So here is the picture: God the Son holds each and every aspect of creation, including all of its evil aspects, in his “hands” — that is, within his all- powerful and ever-effectual word — and carries it by that word to where it accomplishes exactly what he wants it to do.

Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child:
And again for your convenience...

“Not only is that the logical conclusion of Calvinism, it’s the logical conclusion of Biblical sovereignty. The alternative is to have an uncontrolled devil running roughshod over God’s creation. But, the Bible is full of examples of God limiting and binding Satan. Consider Job. Or Satan’s desire to sift Peter, but Christ intervened. Even Legion could not take the herd of swine without Jesus’ consent.

Or, to look at it another way, we know that in the book of Revelation Satan is bound and put into an abyss for 1000 years. Afterward he is released, vanquished, and placed in the Lake of Fire. Now, since we know that God has the power to do that, why has He not done it yet? The only rational answer is: Satan plays a part in God’s economy. When God is done with him, He will judge him and seclude him eternally.

Remember, God’s way are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. As high as the Heavens are above the earth, so are God’s ways higher than our ways and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. Just because we struggle with the idea of God’s absolute power, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true or that God cannot exercise it.” - Jim
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
That is just a passage you misunderstand

Paul is not speaking of a discussion between a Calvinist and a non Calvinist

but a hardened Jew who was being used for the purpose of the crucifixion and argues if God's will to use the Jew for his purpose why is being judged
I know the passage very well and nowhere in the text is there any support for your asinine interpretation.

Who said it was a discussion between a Calvinist and non-Calvinist?

It describes a man that thinks God cannot find fault with mankind unless he shows mercy to all, which he doesn't. So he sees God's will is in control of all things Sovereignly, and he blames God.

It describes you Tom.

And your last line is just plain silly.

You should spend some time studying instead of playing your one-stringed banjo through your keyboard hour upon hour.
 
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preacher4truth

Well-known member
And again for your convenience...

“Not only is that the logical conclusion of Calvinism, it’s the logical conclusion of Biblical sovereignty. The alternative is to have an uncontrolled devil running roughshod over God’s creation. But, the Bible is full of examples of God limiting and binding Satan. Consider Job. Or Satan’s desire to sift Peter, but Christ intervened. Even Legion could not take the herd of swine without Jesus’ consent.

Or, to look at it another way, we know that in the book of Revelation Satan is bound and put into an abyss for 1000 years. Afterward he is released, vanquished, and placed in the Lake of Fire. Now, since we know that God has the power to do that, why has He not done it yet? The only rational answer is: Satan plays a part in God’s economy. When God is done with him, He will judge him and seclude him eternally.

Remember, God’s way are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. As high as the Heavens are above the earth, so are God’s ways higher than our ways and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. Just because we struggle with the idea of God’s absolute power, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true or that God cannot exercise it.” - Jim
Yes, all things, even the evil God permitted will in the end be ultimately used for good, even as it is now.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
@TomFL I believe you are one who states you were never at enmity with God or hostile in your mind toward him, correct?

(which is contrary to Scripture)

If that is your position, why are you at enmity and hostile now when we present the true God of Scripture to you in all His glory?
 
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TomFL

Guest
I know the passage very well and nowhere in the text is there any support for your asinine interpretation.

Who said it was a discussion between a Calvinist and non-Calvinist?

It describes a man that thinks God cannot find fault with mankind unless he shows mercy to all, which he doesn't. So he sees God's will is on control of all things Sovereignly, and he blames God.

It describes you Tom.

And your last line is just plain silly.

You should spend some time studying instead of playing your one-stringed banjo through your keyboard hour upon hour.

Funny but you neither show you know the passage well or that my interpretation is asinine

The passage is about Israel and had God's plan failed seeing Israel's being cutoff


Rom. 9:1–7 —KJV
Ҧ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”
 

Sketo

Well-known member
as for your chessboard analogy it serves well to illustrate what I was talking about

What is more impressive the chess master who moves the pieces on both sides of the board

so that he can win

or the chess master who takes on all comers and yet still always wins

The free will God is the bigger God

he does not need to meticulously determine all things to get his way
In one “chess board” scenario
God wins because he is God!


And in the other scenario
God wins because man allowed God to win!
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Funny but you neither show you know the passage well or that my interpretation is asinine

The passage is about Israel and had God's plan failed seeing Israel's being cutoff


Rom. 9:1–7 —KJV
Ҧ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”
Have you ever read the book of Romans?
 
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TomFL

Guest
@TomFL I believe you are one who states you were never at enmity with God or hostile in your mind toward him, correct?

(which is contrary to Scripture)

If that is your position, why are you at enmity and hostile now when we present the true God of Scripture to you in all His glory?
you don't know me or describe me

And I am not now hostile to God

God and Calvinist theology are not the same thing
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Funny but you neither show you know the passage well or that my interpretation is asinine

The passage is about Israel and had God's plan failed seeing Israel's being cutoff


Rom. 9:1–7 —KJV
Ҧ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”
The sad thing is Tom you merely make up your theology as we go along in reaction to posts. It is apparent you do not study, and that you never grasp context.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Have you ever read the book of Romans?
Have you

read 9-11 as a unit

but note in particular

Rom. 11:19–23 —KJV
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”

Now was it God's determination or their own unbelief which they were harden in that caused their being cutoff

And was their being cutoff without remedy because of God's determination or was the possibility they could be grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief

Who does the passage note bears the responsibility for Israel being cutoff

and whose responsibility is it for their remaining cutoff
 
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TomFL

Guest
The sad thing is Tom you merely make up your theology as we go along in reaction to posts. It is apparent you do not study, and that you never grasp context.
You have no idea what you are talking about
and context of Romans 9-11 refutes your contention
 
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TomFL

Guest
In one “chess board” scenario
God wins because he is God!


And in the other scenario
God wins because man allowed God to win!
You ignored the analogy

God is the chessmaster on both boards

and nothing is stated about man allowing God to win

who is more impressive

The chessmaster who has to move the pieces for both sides to win


or the chessmaster who takes on all comers and beat them all
 
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