Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?

[Sketo]

You ignored the analogy

Ok... here we go...

God is the chessmaster on both boards

The God of the Bible does not compete against anyone... not even himself!
You would be better off using an analogy like a playwright!

and nothing is stated about man allowing God to win

According to your “analogy” if man “chooses God” then God wins but if man does not choose God... man wins! If man has the “possibility” of winning then man’s “choice” allows God to win!

Man takes the throne when your god is not allowed, by man, to save him!

who is more impressive

The God of the Bible which is nothing like your flower-ist analogy... especially the second scenario!

The chessmaster who has to move the pieces for both sides to win

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. - Psalm 103:19

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37

And many more...

or the chessmaster who takes on all comers and beat them all

Your Flower-ist analogy fails miserably as a biblical analogy in so many ways!

At least the first scenario leaves room to assume some biblical attributes but the second scenario creates a god more like Athena - an ancient Greek goddess associated with wisdom, handicraft, and warfare!

In the second scenario what do the “chess peaces” represent? Are the “chess peices” people and your god is in competition with Satan for their souls?
Your analogy suggests that god is in competition with someone... not unlike a “dualism theology” <click here for more info on dualism i.e. flower-ism’s “chess” analogy!

What are they “winning” in either scenario? Is both sides competing for sovereignty?
“beat them all”... sounds more like the god of egomania!

Very minimal if any biblical significance in this analogy!
Failed

 

[zerinus]

“The Bible repeatedly declares God’s holiness and righteousness. So, if Calvinism led to the idea that God was not only the “author of evil,” but the most wicked of sinners, the whole theology would have been abandoned by thoughtful churchmen years and years ago.

It was never “accepted” by a majority of “thoughtful churchmen” that it should need to be “abandoned”. Calvinism is very much a minority in the Christian world, and always has been.

Thehe reason Calvinism continues to thrive is that it recognizes God’s sovereignty and His holiness.

Sovereignty is not the same as meticulous presentation. Sovereignty means being completely incharge. God doesn't have to meticulously predetermine everything in order to be completely incharge.

Straw man arguments about how that makes God sinful are just banal.

It is not a straw man, it is a logical conclusion of the given theological premises.

Theologically, God does not have to be evil in order to create evil in His universe.

He does, that is the logical conclusion.

Justst as darkness is the natural state of all unlit matter and energy is necessary to produce light, God can produce evil in His creatures simply by withholding His goodness. He does not have to be positively evil to do this. He merely has to withhold Himself and allow the natural darkness to have its way.”
- Jim

False analogy followed by illogical reasoning. God becomes the author of evil whichever way he chooses to “produce” in his creation. It makes God evil.

 

[TomFL]

Ok... here we go...

The God of the Bible does not compete against anyone... not even himself!
You would be better off using an analogy like a playwright!

First problem I did not chose the analogy. Preacher4truth did

Take it up with him

According to your “analogy” if man “chooses God” then God wins but if man does not choose God... man wins! If man has the “possibility” of winning then man’s “choice” allows God to win!

Absurd

'According to preacher4truth analogy get it right

But God the chessmaster always wins no matter what the opponent does

Your claim is false

And he is far more impressive than the one who has to play both sides of the board to win

Man takes the throne when your god is not allowed, by man, to save him!

That is totally ignorant and is representative of the beliefs of no one

No one believes they save themselves

please avoid the false stereotypes

I have posted quotes from Calvinist affirming what I have stated. If you cannot post quotes from Arminians or

Provisionists saying what you claim you are simply misrepresenting others

That is not honest argumentation

 

[zerinus]

Calvinism agrees with all these verses! It’s your intentional misunderstanding of Calvinism that causes your conclusions!

It claims or pretends to, but logically leads to a different conclusion.

No! As Jim stated in his conversation...

“Volumes have been written on this topic. God is the creator, sustainer, and purpose behind all things. But, that is not tantamount with being the author of evil. That’s why Satan exists. Satan is the instrument through which necessary evil occurs in God’s universe. Think, for instance, of how God used Satan to bring calamity to Job. God allowed it and limited the extent of it. But, it was Satan who performed it.

Allowing it (and limiting it) is not the same as being the direct cause of it.

Or, who brought about the fall in the Garden of Eden? Satan. But, was that God’s design? Yes. Christ is the “lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13:8) Why have a sacrifice prepared prior to creation unless the Fall is ordained and inevitable? But, God did not sin in ordaining the lapse. He used an intermediate cause: Satan.

God had foreknowledge that it would happen, and even prepared an Atonement in anticipation that it would happen; but that does not translate into saying that he predetermined their choices to eat of the fruit as well. God’s sovereignty did not deprive Adam of his libertarian freewill.

Everything God does is designed to bring Him the greatest glory. And that includes His control over the events of human history and celestial eternity. The responsibility for everything that occurs in God’s universe can rightly be laid at His holy feet. But, that is not the same as charging Him with evil, which no man can do.

That is a deceptive argument. The argument is not about whether God is sovereign over his creation or not, or whether is in charge of everything that happens in the universe or not; it is about whether that sovereignty necessarily deprives mankind of libertarian freewill of not. Can God be fully sovereign, and still grant libertarian freewill to all his creatures at the same time? That is the real question. Calvinism says no, the Bible says yes.

Isa 45:5-7 — “I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.”

None of that necessitates the denial of libertarian freewill.

If you are going to attempt to limit God’s sovereignty, then what exactly will you use as your plumb line?​

Smokescreen to hide the truth. God’s sovereignty is not limited by affirming libertarian freewill.

Howow far is God capable of going before He reaches the edge of what men will allow? ​

False promises and assumptions all the way through. Granting man libertarian freewill places no limits on what God is able or not able to do.

Whatat events is God involved in and what events require His absence? And how will you discern between the two? Where exactly is the limitation on the One who calls Himself “Almighty”?” - Jim​

See above. It is his sovereign will to grant mankind full libertarian freewill, so they can be held accountable for their actions. He has also told them what he expects of them. When they sin, he sends them messangers and prophets to command them to repent. When they repent, he forgives them. When they don't, he chastises them to bring them to repentance. If no repentance is in sight, and their sins reaches a certain point, he also reserves the right to completely destroy them. None of this, however, places any limits on the sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipotence of God.

 

[zerinus]

Omnipotence doesn't face over-exertion just because you don't see God as fair and have to remake him in your own thoughts and according to what you deem fair.

Guess what?

God owns both sides of the "chessboard" and He does as He wills, is Sovereign over all, including permitting the fall, evil, chaos, sin.

Permitting evil and the Fall is not the same as actively causing it and bringing it to pass.

In the meantime, not understanding properly the nature of God or man, you spend an exorbitant amount of time trying to get God off the hook.

The only time one needs to get God off the hook is when Calvinism puts him on the hook. But luckily since Calvinism is false, that situation doesn't normally arise.

 

[preacher4truth]

Ok... here we go...

The God of the Bible does not compete against anyone... not even himself!
You would be better off using an analogy like a playwright!

According to your “analogy” if man “chooses God” then God wins but if man does not choose God... man wins! If man has the “possibility” of winning then man’s “choice” allows God to win!

Man takes the throne when your god is not allowed, by man, to save him!

The God of the Bible which is nothing like your flower-ist analogy... especially the second scenario!

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. - Psalm 103:19

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37

And many more...


Your Flower-ist analogy fails miserably as a biblical analogy in so many ways!

At least the first scenario leaves room to assume some biblical attributes but the second scenario creates a god more like Athena - an ancient Greek goddess associated with wisdom, handicraft, and warfare!

In the second scenario what do the “chess peaces” represent? Are the “chess peices” people and your god is in competition with Satan for their souls?
Your analogy suggests that god is in competition with someone... not unlike a “dualism theology” <click here for more info on dualism i.e. flower-ism’s “chess” analogy!

What are they “winning” in either scenario? Is both sides competing for sovereignty?
“beat them all”... sounds more like the god of egomania!

Very minimal if any biblical significance in this analogy!
Failed

You're correct and you nailed his error, but he doesn't listen to reason or context.

 

[zerinus]

And again for your convenience...

“Not only is that the logical conclusion of Calvinism, it’s the logical conclusion of Biblical sovereignty. The alternative is to have an uncontrolled devil running roughshod over God’s creation. But, the Bible is full of examples of God limiting and binding Satan. Consider Job. Or Satan’s desire to sift Peter, but Christ intervened. Even Legion could not take the herd of swine without Jesus’ consent.

Straw man and smokescreen to hide the truth. God being in charge of his creation, to the point of controlling and limiting the powers of Satan, is not the same as determining and actively causing Satan’s evil thoughts, intentions, desires, and actions.

Or, to look at it another way, we know that in the book of Revelation Satan is bound and put into an abyss for 1000 years. Afterward he is released, vanquished, and placed in the Lake of Fire. Now, since we know that God has the power to do that, why has He not done it yet? The only rational answer is: Satan plays a part in God’s economy. When God is done with him, He will judge him and seclude him eternally.

Ditto. See above. Satan plays a part in the economy of God; but that does not translate into a meticulous predetermination of all of Satan’s evil choices, actions, and desires.

Remember, God’s way are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. As high as the Heavens are above the earth, so are God’s ways higher than our ways and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. Just because we struggle with the idea of God’s absolute power, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true or that God cannot exercise it.” - Jim

Who is Jim that I should be bound by anything he says? I support my theology with the Bible, not Jim.

 

[zerinus]

Yes, all things, even the evil God permitted will in the end be ultimately used for good, even as it is now.

Agreed. But permitting evil is not the same as actively causing it and bringing it to pass. It is not the same as actively causing and bringing about the evil intentions, desires, motivations, and actions of those who commit the evil acts.

 

[TomFL]

You're correct and you nailed his error, but he doesn't listen to reason or context.

You brought up the chessmaster analogy

Are you now impeaching your own work ?

And does addressing your analogy translate to not listening to reason or context

All you are offering is an ad hominem argument

 

[TomFL]

And again for your convenience...

“Not only is that the logical conclusion of Calvinism, it’s the logical conclusion of Biblical sovereignty. The alternative is to have an uncontrolled devil running roughshod over God’s creation. But, the Bible is full of examples of God limiting and binding Satan. Consider Job. Or Satan’s desire to sift Peter, but Christ intervened. Even Legion could not take the herd of swine without Jesus’ consent.

Rather irrelevant. The issue is does God determine all things including the sinful thoughts,. desires and deeds of man
Quotes were produced of Calvinists affirming such

Nothing you say addresses that

or the unbiblical nature of the claim that God is the cause of all mens sin

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[zerinus]

In one “chess board” scenario
God wins because he is God!

And in the other scenario
God wins because man allowed God to win!

The chessboard is not a good analogy of God’s interactions with man; but if you have to use that analogy, in the first scenario God always wins because he is playing both sides of the chessboard; in the second scenario he always wins because he is the smarter than anybody else. I like the second one better. I have more respect for a God who always wins because he is smarter than anybody else, than for one who always wins because he is playing both sides of the table at once.

 

[zerinus]

Have you ever read the book of Romans?

Have you ever read the epistles of James or Peter?

 

[TomFL]

In one “chess board” scenario
God wins because he is God!

And in the other scenario
God wins because man allowed God to win!

Sorry no the chessmaster won because he was better at chess than anyone else and is able to have his way despite opposition

He was able to defeat any and all opposition. He did not have to play both sides of the board

and He showed greater agility than one who had to control both sides to win

 

[zerinus]

Nope. You are most certainly hostile in your mind when presented with God in all His glory, that's a fact.

You'll either come to grips with that here or there.

So you worship Calvinism instead of God! Calvinism is your real God! Why didn’t I figure that out sooner?

 

[zerinus]

sorry you confuse your theology with God

Okay, you figured it out before I did, so you get the credit.

 

[TomFL]

Nope. You are most certainly hostile in your mind when presented with God in all His glory, that's a fact.

You'll either come to grips with that here or there.

Sorry you confuse Calvinism and God

Calvinism is not God

God is not Calvinism

Worshipping Calvinism would be idolatry

 

[zerinus]

Ok... here we go...

The God of the Bible does not compete against anyone... not even himself!
You would be better off using an analogy like a playwright!

Like I said, the chessboard is not a good analogy; but sometimes a bad analogy is better than nothing. So let’s see how it goes:

According to your “analogy” if man “chooses God” then God wins but if man does not choose God... man wins!

Wrong! If man chooses God, both God and man win! If man does not choose God, man loses, and God is grieved; but God does not “lose”. The only loser is man.

IfIf man has the “possibility” of winning then man’s “choice” allows God to win!

What a load of nonsense! Ultimately there is only one “winner” or “looser” in the entire scenario, it is man. God is pleased when man wins, and grieved when he doesn’t:

Luke 15:

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Man takes the throne when your god is not allowed, by man, to save him!

What utter nonsense!

 

[Sketo]

He was able to defeat any and all opposition. He did not have to play both sides of the board

How?

and He showed greater agility than one who had to control both sides to win

As for you, you meant (H2803) evil against me, but God meant (H2803) it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. - Genesis 50:20
(The very move that opponent means to make God means that move, of the opponent, for Gods own purpose! Think about it... could a move be made, by the opponent, that God did not mean to be made? No!)

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9
(Even the “steps” of the opponent are “established” by the LORD)

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11
(“all things” = entire chessboard, pieces, and opponents)

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35
(He controls the entire chessboard... and opponents)

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21
(The opponent “plans” but God determines if that “plan” is allowed or not)

The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. - Psalm 103:19
(Again God controls the entire chessboard... and opponents)

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1
(Even the very moves of the opponent are determined by God)

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2
(No move from the opponent can alter any future movement God has determined to take place! Think about it for a minute! Even in chess your opponent can make a move that alters your next move. This verse says that even can not happen!)

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37
(This verse says that the opponent can’t even choose to move a chess peice unless God commanded it)

And many more...

---

Conclusion...

The God, of the Bible, controls not only the “chessboard” but every piece on the chessboard, every movement of every piece on the “board”, and every “determined” move that is “meant” by the opponent!
If this is not your God you don’t know the God of the Bible!​

 

[TomFL]

How?

by his ability

The god who can allow a measure of free will and accomplish his purposes is a bigger God than the one who has to control everything to get his way

And the God of the bible does not determine all of men's sin

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

so the God that does does not exist

 

[Sketo]

that conclusion is not written in scripture.

Then you may not have The Bible that includes the scripture below...


As for you, you meant (H2803) evil against me, but God meant (H2803) it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. - Genesis 50:20
(The very move that opponent means to make... God means that move, of the opponent, for Gods own purpose! Think about it... could a move be made, by the opponent, that God did not mean to be made? No!)

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9
(Even the “steps” of the opponent are “established” by the LORD)

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11
(“all things” = entire chessboard, pieces, and opponents)

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35
(He controls the entire chessboard... and opponents)

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21
(The opponent “plans” but God determines if that “plan” is allowed or not)

The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. - Psalm 103:19
(Again God controls the entire chessboard... and opponents)

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1
(Even the very moves of the opponent are determined by God)

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2
(No move from the opponent can alter any future movement God has determined to take place! Think about it for a minute! Even in chess your opponent can make a move that alters your next move. This verse says that even can not happen!)

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37
(This verse says that the opponent can’t even choose to move a chess peice unless God commanded it)

And many more...