brightfame52
Well-known member
More evasion.
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
- Thread starter Sketo
- Start date
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TomFL
Guest
Nope you fabricate
James 1:14–15 —KJV
“But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
1 John 2:16 —ESV
“For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.”
not from God but from the world
Sketo
Well-known member
Seriously Tom? This is arrogance! I’m trying to be cordial!
I can agree with this statement 100% because it does not cause me to come to the same conclusion as you!
That statement does not say...
Tom... honestly... do you believe I, or the person who wrote that quote, would post or agree with it if they came to the same conclusion as you... honestly???
(Not an attack)
I’m telling you it is not the conclusion of compatiblism.
To demand it is, is arrogance!
Can we have a cordial conversation?
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TomFL
Guest
No I don't think so
According to the definition I gave from monergism .com that is how God's will is accomplished
You have another way lets hear it
Does not say what ?
This is what it does say
Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism
Monergism.org
It clearly states the desires are determined
your claim
is contrary to what is stated
God determines things by determining man's desires and circumstances
Honestly i believe they stated what they believed
Man's desires are determined
That depends on you
The words are there
I do not find anything arrogant or uncordial in them
In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men willfully and voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28).
How can God be sovereign and man still be free?
www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/sovereignfree.html
Cross-Examination: Foreordination & Free Will"
By Dr. Greg Bahnsen
By Dr. Greg Bahnsen
We Believe
Based on texts like Ephesians 1:11, Isaiah 46:9-11, etc., we hold that the Bible teaches that God has decreed in an unchangeable fashion from all eternity what events will take place in nature and history -- and even what decisions men will make. He has predetermined the end from the beginning of all things, as well as the means by which all His ends shall be accomplished. According to His own wisdom and in deference to nothing whatsoever outside of Himself and His purposes, God has predetermined or foreordained everything that will happen in the created order and what men will do
We should be clear that NEITHER compatibilism nor hard determinism affirms that any man has a free will. Those who believe man has a free will are not compatibilists, but should, rather, be called "inconsistent". Our choices are our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures, nor seperately from God's meticulous providence. How can god be sovereign and men Free John Hendryx
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brightfame52
Well-known member
More evasion. That is all you do
brightfame52
Well-known member
I like that definition. I might look to get that book.
Sketo
Well-known member
Your statement is not found anywhere in that definition!
“the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism”
...does not equate to...
This how is assumed by you... not found by you!
Yes... but you assume the how! It does not state how they are determined! You assume it!
Neither statement claim how they are determined, therefore you assume “contrary”!
Again Yes but you assume the how!
I agree... but they did not state the how! You assume the how!
Yes... but this does not equate to “planted”! You assume the how!
Not the how!
If you assume your how but your how is not displayed and when you are corrected according to your assumption... then you demand your how without evidence of your how then your demand becomes arrogance!
And nowhere in that is the statement...
“because that is” not “how he determines all things in compatibilism”!
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zerinus
Well-known member
I am not “assuming” anything. I am not ignorant about Calvinism. I have debated Calvinists for a long time, and I am familiar with the teachings of very well-known and most respected Calvinists like RC Sproul, and I know that that is exactly what they do believe. Your attempt at reinventing Calvinism in your own image in order to get it off the hook won’t work. Your words against the words of the most prominent and well respected Calvinists doesn't stand a chance.
zerinus
Well-known member
They were tempted by the devil, and yielded to that temptation. They acted out of envy. No prior “desire” was required.
Eve was deceived (1 Tim. 2:14). No evil lusts were there nor was required.
Sketo
Well-known member
You assume the how without any evidence!
Your how assumption says otherwise!
Then you should have no problem showing evidence for your assumed how they are determined!
It’s not on the “hook” until you prove your “how” claim!
Big words! Bring it on! Prove your how claim using any “prominent” Calvinist!
This is your assumed how claim!
Now prove your how claim or stop assuming it!!!
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TomFL
Guest
Do you agree God determined their desires ?
Planting was your word
I stated
The man is wanting nothing on his own only that which God determines him to want
Do you disagree with that ?
Compatibilism teaches man can only chose his greatest desires
so control his desires you control his choices
again do you disagree ?
I did not assume the How
There are a number of ways that could be accomplished
I took you statement to mean God determined those desires for him
not necessarily that he directly instilled those desires
secondary causes may have been employed but God is behind it all in compatibilism
Sketo
Well-known member
Yes... but we differ on the how!
Not my word! It was zerinus’s word!
Assumed conclusion without evidence! Man is not “neutral”!
Does not follow above statement!
As stated above!
If he is forced otherwise it would not be voluntary! What would force him to choose otherwise? Nothing if it is voluntary!
Good! “control” is not the same as “planted” or “placed”!
Not yet... pending you meaning of “control”!
You did if you assumed “planted” or “placed”!
Glad to see you change your demand of only one way!
We agree Fallen man is not neutral... there “placed” or “planted” is not necessary in determination!
Correct!
I agree!
zerinus
Well-known member
“Compatibilism
“Compatibilism (also known as soft dyeterminism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature,for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decreee.)
“Christ dwells within us not for the purpose of sinking our being into His being, nor of substituting Himself for us as the agent in our activities; much less of seizing our wills and operating them for us in contradiction to our own immanent mind; but to operate directly upon us, to make us good, that our works, freely done by us, may under His continual leading, be good also.”
B.B. Warfield
B.B. Warfield is on of the best known and most respected Calvinist theologians around. If that is not enough, here is a link to a quote from a lesser known theologian:
Search | Monergism
Monergism.com is a free, comprehensive online theological library comprised of Reformed Christian resources designed to bring glory to Jesus Christ alone.
www.reformationtheology.com
Sketo
Well-known member
And where is your assumed how in the above???
This is your assumed how claim!
Now prove your how claim or stop assuming it!!!
zerinus
Well-known member
Maybe you have reading difficulties, so I will make it easy for you:
“In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily, but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism” (B.B. Warfield).
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TomFL
Guest
Then we have a mess here. I did not use the term and you brought it into our discussion and I took it be your interpretation of what I stated about God causing the desire of the man and did not even pay it much attention
Irrelevant if everything is determined then all wants and desires are determined
along with whatever is necessary to to that end
I disagree
the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism
the desires are all determined
If you are going to affirm meticulous determination of all things then there is nothing that is free from that determination
Again planted was not my word. You brought it from Zerinus into the disdcussion with me and I was standing by whast I stated
I never stated anything about there being only one way
Somewhat irrelevant man not being neutral is a result of God's determination if he meticulously determines all that transpires
so the desires are all everyone of them determined for the man
whether directly or indirectly
so what desire is there for the man to desire on his own
free from the determination of God ?
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brightfame52
Well-known member
If there was no evil nature she would not have been tempted and enticed. But that is not the case James 1 :
but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death
You can't tell me Eve didn't get tempted and enticed by her own lust. Where did she get the flesh she was in to be tempted and enticed?
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TomFL
Guest
Her own lusts not lusts God determined her to have yes ?
zerinus
Well-known member
I gave you the scripture. She was deceived. Deception can happen to anyone. It does not require a “sinful nature” to be deceived.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Okay. Where did she get her own lust of the flesh from?